Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Contenders Eugene V. Debs 2024071

Us throughout the program tonight. His book is call, its been 85 since debs died. Why do we care about him . Debs is one of the labor leaders at a crucial time and a conflict between labor and capital, but more importantly, he was the central figure in the socialist movement at a time when it was a viable, growing and important part of the american political culture. So is he interesting as a snapshot in time or do you think he has a lasting legacy, do you think . Like many thirdparty candidates he and his fellow socialists managed to move the conversation in very important directions that have affected the development of american democracy ever since. So in that regard he is of his time, but he has also had a long impact on us, as well. We will have time to delve into some of the elections more deeply later on, but of the five bids he made for the white house, are any particularly significant . Two for very different reasons. The 1912 bid represents the high watermark of socialism where he got about 6 of the vote. The quite different election is 1920 where he was imprisoned in the atlanta penitentiary and got a million votes also while running in prison. We will learn about both of those in his other bids for the white house as the 90minute program the contenders are people who made an attempt at the white house and failed, but had an effect on political and American History. We are live tonight from the debs house and museum in terre haute, indiana. Its on the campus of Indiana State University. His wife kate lived here for years after he died. Well show you more of the house as we continue here. The top floor of this house is an interesting mural and the mural throughout the entire top floor depicts the year of debs public life and throughout our program we will be showing you aspects of that art work to help illustrate eugene v. Debs story. Right now let me introduce you to our second guest in the program. She is joining us from the second floor in what was debs bedroom. Now it is a museum room with a lot of artifacts and e lisa philips is a history professor at Indiana State University and a specialist in history. Thanks so much for being with us. Your thoughts on debs significance to the american story . Like earnernest said, it has do with his activity in labor unions and the American Railway union and the socialist party as well and he has had a lasting effect on many of the laws that were passed that were a result of his activism, some of which we still enjoy and you can tell about his time period throughout the labor union, as well. Lisa phillips will be showing us the artifacts from time to time and she is also part of the foundation and tell me about the work of the foundation and why youre involved in it. The Debs Foundation seeks to keep the debs legacy alive and what it hopes to do is to promote not only the museum, but the policies that debs promoted which is social justice and equality and the rights of workers generally so it continues to live through the spirit of his mission. As we turn to your expertise in understanding what you show case here, can you tell me a little bit about how this house is financed and functions and whose care its under. Its paid for by the Debs Foundation and its paid for by dr. Charles king and karen brown. Both of whom are here in terre haute and run the museum on a daily basis. As we always do, we will open up the phone lines and involve you on the discussion and very interested to hear about your discussion about the period in American History that he represents. Let me ask you a little bit about what made him a success at what he did it. Many people remember him most of all as a dynamic speaker. This is an era of wonderful stump speakers who could fill two and three hours of the speech. Debs was the best in that genre and in fact so good that he could afford to charge a modest admission for his audience and thats how they funded the socialist campaigns in many cases and he was just a very charismatic and had the ability. I think he began as a victorian speaker and as he became more comfortable over the years he had a more modern, impromptu style that had a tremendous impact on his audience. Over your shoulders is debs library and my understanding is that he dropped out of school at age 14. Im curious about his extensive lean ra library and how he educated himself. He was very much selftaught and he began as a working in the Railroad Union and was very interested in the literature there and he worked for a while as a grocery clerk in town and always wanted to get more education and had to rely on doing it on his own. Lisa phillips, how did terre haute shape eugene debs . In many ways. Mostly through his upbringing here when he was a young man, a boy and a young man and he always harkened back to the terre haute of his youth and he thought and invoked all of the time in terms of the harmonious relationships that developed in old terre haute between everybody he said could aspire to do something good in their lives whether youd be a business owner, whether youre a worker, but everybody had the chance he always said to do something and to aspire to improve their lives and thats what he held in the most regard in terms of his upbringing. When you walk around the house, he was interested in politics from an early age. He made bid for the clerk of this town on the democratic ticket. His early roots, then, were in a twoparty system. Can you talk about that . I can say a little bit which is to say that he ran on the democrat dechlic party ticket when he believed that he could form a relationship between multiple groups of people, whether they be Business Owners, workers and he believed in the party system in that regard. It wasnt until later in the 1880s and 1890s that he felt like the party system through the democrats and the republicans werent working through the best interest of all of the people combined. When he sought the white house, what was his intention . Did he ever really think that he could win . He said very clearly that he had no intention of ever winning. Lincoln steffens interviewed him in 1908 and asked what would it be like if he was president , if the party gets close to winning id be the last person who wanted the job or put into the job. He thought of himself more of an evangelist for the job and he believed very much in democracy, but he was more interested in using the campaigns in order to generate interest among workers, to develop class consciousness, to sort of deliver his message powerfully every four years. Give us a snapshot of the america that he was dissatisfied with. It was an enormous concentration of capital and many people were worried about the labor problem. Many workers felt in the face of this rapid industrialization that their skills were less valuable and their wages were in the national and International Market where they were getting declining wages and a more difficult work environment, and there was an enormous sense that labor was unhappy and deb said the problem is not labor, the problem is capital and the real problem is not that the workers are unhappy and the root problem is these enormous concentrations of capital are undermining american democracy. Socialism was, of course, on the rise in europe. How was what they were doing here different from what was happening here. It was similar at first. They considered themselves to be internationalists that essentially socialism needed to be a Worldwide Movement and that they expected that they would be. There were challenges in america to convince workers to do that and there was a stronger sense of a working class in europe on which to draw for socialists there. One of the struggles for debs throughout his career was to think of workers that they ought to think of themselves not as democrats or republicans and not on the basis of religious affiliation and to think of themselves as members of a working class. How successful were he and his fellow thinkers of convincing the public . At the height of its popularity, how much ground did they make . If you measure it by debs success, his highwatermark was 1912. He got 6 of the vote. Never any Electoral College votes, right . No, but there was a much broader. Socialists were much more successful at the local level. There were quite a number of socialist mayors and city officials of various kinds and there was a very vibrant, International Socialist society by College Students started by jack lunden. And there was college ferment about socialism and there was a lively press and some of the best journalism from that time period comes out of the socialist press journals like the masses and out of grants village. So socialism was much bigger than counting the votes, i think. And today in congress the United States senator bern sanders of vermont is a socialist, and we talked to him about debs legacy. Lets listen to a bit of what he had to say. A lot of the idea says that he advocated, talked about when people get old there should be social insurance for them and Retirement Benefits for them, well, thats what we call Social Security today and amazingly enough in 2011, there were those same people who hated debs who now want to the destroy Social Security and he believed health care was a right of all people. That battle continues today, but i think it is fair to say that many of the huge advances made during the 30s under president roosevelt, the Great Society under Lyndon Johnson and throughout, those were ideas that people like debs probably brought to the attention, he was the first person to bring to the attention of millions of working people. And lisa phillips, let me ask you to add your perspectives to the america that he saw and was dissatisfied with, and ultimately whether or not he saw himself as antiamerican or wanting to change america. I dont think he saw himself as antiamerican at all. In fact, i think he thought he was advocating through his socialist party a kind of america that he harkened back of one that was more communitycentered and one of not driven by big business. He wasnt antihelp capitalist at all and it wasnt until the advent of corporate, and he felt that there had to be a forprofit movement to bring everyday wages and records down of. Do you have something to add . One of the things that made debs so roud . His argument that was this was a revolutionary country in the first place and the thought of revolution and in his life time he experienced the civil war as a revolution and some of his greatest idols were the abolitionists and his argument was that the country had fought a battle to overthrow chattel slavery and the next step was to overthrow savory, as he called it. Who were his workers . Did he include women in his wom view of it . Did he include people other than whites . Did he conclude immigrants . What was his definition . As one of the First Industrial union leaders, he was mounting a movement on behalf of the working class which he believed everyone who was a worker, who earned wages, which were twothirds of americans by 1890, was a part of, whether they be an immigrant, whether they be black, whether they be women. He saw them as all members of a working class that needed to be uplifted in some way, shape or form. Theres controversy still to this day among historians about whether he did enough on behalf of women and africanamericans and he had some trouble seeing immigrants, especially chinese immigrants and italian immigrants who worked for very low wages and brought them back to their home countries, as a part of the same american working class that was driving was trying to fight for higher wages. He had some trouble over the course of his career reconciling that. But certainly his as Honest Industrial movement was one that recognized the rights of all workers, regardless of their backgrounds. I understand that you have one of the artifacts, a copy of the jungle. Whats the significance . Up ton sinclair wrote the jungle. He was a member of the socialist party himself and he highlighted the horrible conditions that meat packers worked in in chicago and the conditions what really riled up the country was not only the conditions of the workers who were working in the meat packing industry, but the quality of the meat, the processed meat that was coming out of the plant. So he was the one who wrote about rats and peoples fingers being caught in the processed meat and how horrible that was. So he worked he and debs were supporters of one another and up upton sainclair was able to highlight that. Very much of the same mind set in terms of demonstrating the negative consequences of big business. The bookends with a scene where he wanders into a socialist meeting and hears a character making a socialist speech. Socialism was the bigger answer. So debs is actually right in the book. Would you tell us the story of his first imprisonment and how he got connected with the whole concept and thinking of socialism at that time . Yes, he was he was head of the American Railway union which had mounted a successful strike against the Great Northern Railroad Company based in minneapolis in 1893. The aru gained thousands and thousands of members with debs as the head. And many of those members were part of the Pullman Car Company in 1894. They asked the aru for support when they decided to walk out against George Pullman who dropped their wages by 28 . Once the wages were dropped, they wanted to walk out and they asked the aru for support. And debs was reluctant at first. He thought it was too risky and but the pullman workers had a lot of support not only within pullman, the town of pullman, which is outside of chicago, but also had a lot of support from Railway Workers all the way from there to st. Louis. They staged what were some of the boycott or sympathic strikes along the Railway Lines and it became national in scope. And as a result of that, president Grover Cleveland and the courts got involved and wanted to issue an injunction to stop the power of the aru and stopping the transport of goods and especially the u. S. Mail along the railways through that corridor. Grover cleveland got involved he sent u. S. Troops to open up the Railway Depots that had been shut down as a result of the strike that had been called by the aru, and then debs was ultimately didnt call the striking workers off and was found in contempt of court for not following the injunction. And so he served three months in prison as a result of being convicted of being in contempt of court. And so then, it was then when he was in prison after the strike when he was introduced to socialist Party Literature and became a socialist party member and then staunch advocate. I read a description that he entered left prison a changed man the first time. Do you know more about that . Well, i think he did come to the realization when the federal troops came in and smashed the strike, when he ended up in prison for defending the rights of workers, that it made it as clear as it could be that the two parties were both working against labor and that there needed to be an alternative. He didnt go right away to socialism. He was involved in the populist party and very actively initially. When that failed, then the socialist party emerged after that. For our two guests, were going to begin bringing your telephone calls in the mix. They are 2027378001. As we take our first call, we want to give you a sense of where the house is on the campus of Indiana State University. This is our first caller. Steve, youre on the air. Caller please compare debs with William Jennings bryan because it seems like theyre appealing or tlrying to appeal o a similar constituency. Thanks very much. The election of 1912 . His William Jennings bryan was our earlier profile. How did they compare . Debs was an admirer of bryan and i think they shared some concerns about reform. I think the crucial difference is that debs was really a revolutionary. He was not only interested in reform, reform was necessary but he felt that something much greater is needed, that there needed to be an end to capitalism and Public Ownership of the means of production and that was a position that clearly distinguished him from bryans campaign. That election, it was his first try, 1900. He got 0. 6 of the popular vote that year. Do you know what his early appeals were as a candidate and how they changed over his many bids . The challenge for debs was to try to knit together socialists who were coming from very, very different positions. One of the strongest hot beds of socialism was oklahoma. People who had been populists started to develop these socialist meetings where they would gather together for to hear socialist speeches and debs was a hero there. But the socialist needed to also speak to trade unionists in chicago and milwaukee, to radical bohemians in San Francisco and greenwich village, so the real challenge for debs and for the party was to find a way to knit together people who all agreed on some level that capitalism needed to change fundamentally. But were coming at this from very, very different positions. So it took a while to build the apparatus. 1908, it looked like debs was beginning to understand some early marketing because he had some Campaign Tactics like the red train special and the red special ban. Can you tell us a little bit more about that . Well, 1908 was a critical year because of the popularity of the socialist party and the strength of labor unions in this period. So he his message, i think, as earnest was saying, appealed to increasingly more people from diverse amounts of backgrounds. The re