bet. >> right. essentially hedging your bet. >> larry: that's legal, isn't it? that's legal. it's done all the time. >> that's correct. it is legal. >> larry: so what did goldman sachs do that you think -- and they have just been accused. this is a civil suit. what did they do wrong in your opinion? >> because it's illegal to commit fraud. >> larry: what was the fraud? >> the fraud was not telling the person who is investing in this -- timberwolf was one of the examples they gave as after investment, one of assets they were getting people to invest in. if you don't get the person to -- i won't use the word, but a crappy investment. that's their words in their own e-mails to each other. you're defrauding the person who is taking that money and giving it to you. because they're giving it to you because they're hoping you're going to do something good with it. and when you make the investment, you realize it doesn't always go well. >> larry: were these mostly mortgages? >> no, no. not all of them, no, no. you could do a derivative on just about anything. in some markets around the