mubarak or gadhafi. how would you rank him on a scale of one to ten. >> i think if you put saddam as a ten and mubarak in the middle and say one of the more friendly king abdullah as one, i guess he would be in the round eight. >> but bad, but not as bad as they come. >> yeah, maybe i would nudge him up to nine. human rights watch said about syria last year that it was one of the very worst offenders in the year. >> but we don't hear about it, because there's not a media presence. but he shoots to kill and he tortures. you spent time with him back when you were at the state department >> it was actually when i was in a role similar to yours. i was hosting a show for sky news. i went to the second largest city there and spent the day with him and his wife, did a long interview with bashar for sky news. and the truth is, one of the reasons why people are hopeful about syria when it seems like they shouldn't be is because