military commanders that i've spoken with who say, listen, torture doesn't get you good information. as a commander in the field he knows there are a whole host of other reasons not to torture. he knows in iraq and afghan and elsewhere, these are battles for the hearts and minds of people. listen, i was in iraq during abu ghraib when those photos were released. the damage that did to u.s. standing there at a time it was trying to earn the confidence of the iraqi people, these things make a difference in that part of the world in the views of military commanders such as general mattis. so, it's not just about whether it works or not and many military commanders believe it doesn't work, but it's about what it means for u.s. standing in the world. what it means for the standing of the u.s. military. troops deployed in the field. these are factors and no one is going to be more aware of those factors than general mattis who has served and commanded troops in battle in iraq and elsewhere. >> it looks like an aide is