it's not about any legal terms they may use. it's votes. then you have what mueller is doing. rangappa, when we talk about whether a president could be charged versus should be charged, meaningful distinction. the trump lawyer is only raising the first one at this point. the real appraisal is the second one. what is your take? can a president be charged with obstruction of justice? >> doj policy that a sitting president can't be indicted while he's sitting. >> you have to impeach him first? >> impeachment and removal, two-stage process. then he could be charged. however, what dowd was saying is that the president cannot even be guilty of obstruction. and that is widely dismissed as