are we taking all these people from these blank countries like africa, we need more people from countries like norway," that is not arguing in favor of a merit-based system. >> yes, that's -- >> there's nothing about being born in norway that is merit based. >> i'm saying that the president's words are wrong, unhelpful, and they also in my mind don't relate to the policies that he's putting forward. and that's the problem here. he's portraying this in a way that doesn't fit with what he's actually advocating. >> jake, i think we tend to oversimplify. i agree with you that we need a merit-based system. 66% of our immigration structure is family reunification. what people call chain migration. it doesn't mean it has to be zero. >> right. >> no one's suggesting -- >> and we also don't immedianee central planning system to determine how many phds we need. that needs to be done in the marketplace. but we need farm workers and we need phds. and -- now, the detail on