skeptical there's going to be an interview. there's a good cop, bad cop routine going on. the president has been in his public statements acting as if this is no big deal, open book. let's answer the questions, i've got nothing to hide. that plays really well politically, particularly with his base. i have no doubt behind the scenes his lawyers are driving a very hard bargain with mueller over the terms of the interview, probably a bargain that has term that are acceptable to mueller. i think the most likely outcome here is an impasse with mueller after which the president claims he was perfectly willing to be interviewed and special counsel is muzzled as i always is and isn't able to explain that actually the terms were not acceptable. >> so an impasse. what happens after an impasse? do they pack up papers and go home or do you think the special counsel would seek a grand jury subpoena? >> that is really the big question, john. i think if he were an independent counsel under the