obstruction where he to do that? >> i'm not sure it would necessarily by itself constitute obstruction. the question would be what was his intent in doing so. but it would play into a narrative that i think leads one to conclude that the president probably has engaged in some obstructive behavior. >> okay. so holder is saying, michael, he's also talked about how trump is putting pressure on all of our government institutions. is it a pattern of obstruction, even if each individual action may not constitute obstruction all on its own? >> a couple of things about what eric said. first is, he and i disagree about whether the president possesses the legal power to fire mueller. my view is he does not have that power. it's a derived power through the