benefit of the doubt at this point? i wrote a story about rudy going on tv and lying. he has been lying all along, as the president's lawyer, and the president's been lying ever since he took the oath of office. do they have credibility left? >> that's one of the big problems. it's a credibility issue. it's a communications issue, too. >> you are right, he is speaking to the base. speaking is the base is working for the president's fan base, truth isn't truth anymore. >> that's true. this brings into account, we could walk away with a different impression from the same meeting. that's true. that's where you get the he said he said. there's a kernel there. if we go back to the point of, there was nothing incriminating but we don't know what was said because we didn't do a full debrief, what's to stop the white house from getting a full debrief saying don mcgahn, we need you in here today, monday, we want to know everything you talked about? is there anything that could get in the way of that? >> what would normally happen is that would happen lawyer to