today? that's my one asterisk on this but if you're guilty -- >> if the investigation hadn't been going on, they never would have known that he was breaking the law or the eight different laws that -- >> there was concern about possible -- >> apparently the justice department was on to him years ago and didn't think it was significant to prosecute. clearly mueller wants to nail him to the wall, apparently to try to flip him. now, the question is if he does flip, what does he actually know, if anything? and just so far in none of these indictments or pleas have you seen any indication of a criminal conspiracy with the russians, which is what this investigation was supposed to be about from the beginning. so, yes, if you catch dirty lobbyists, by all means throw the book at them. but i think giuliani's point is sound so far given what we know publicly, that none of this indicates that the big white whale that's supposed to be out there has been near capture yet. >> but, john, it's so interesting that all of these people have russian and ukrainian connections. can't somebody in this story