enough. if it was for the purpose of getting him not to cooperate with a legitimate investigation. i think it's possible. it's very hard. the pardon powers are very broad. he would say he was pardoning him for other reasons. that goes back to some of the tweets. the president said over and over that manafort is being treated unfairly. he kept tweeting this is so unfair. that's what he said every time he pardoned someone. he's kind of setting the stage. >> having this conversation and then manafort is continuing, according to mueller, continuing to lie to mueller and not fully cooperate even though he's supposed to cooperate. >> which seems like he's putting all his chips on a pardon because he's not cooperating in a way that will get him a reduced sentence. what jennifer was talking about which is something my pal professor and i fought about here repeatedly is if you have a power like the power to fire