is not also a crucial conversation. there are a lot of other reasons, too, i think the pope is a very significant figure, but there's no doubt edward snowden was significant. >> why didn't we have a debate on the steps the government was taking in the name of our security? >> we should have that debate, but i don't think snowden is a hero by far. i think he's caused a lot of damage to national security. who is he, 30 years old, a contractor, to decide that he discloses the strongest secrets in the u.s. government? so my view, yeah, there should be a debate. it should be a debate in the congress. i think it's legitimate, for instance, to have this foreign intelligence court that decides who gets kind of spied upon. but let me also put another word in. i'm not going to be very popular. i was a policymaker for a while. what our intelligence community and the nsa gives policymakers is very useful for the national
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