and then going into the room for the interrogation process is all about training, experience an things like leveraging the latest research and negotiation theory, developing an accord with the subject and driving toward what motivates him to get to the information. >> did you have any interactions with the cia interrogators and the designers of this process? >> i did not. however, i have some colleagues that i worked with in the past who themselves had terrific careers in the military and intelligence but had not been in any way, shape or form interrogators, just like the two contracted psychologists you mentioned had no experience with the middle east interrogations, al qaeda, the culture. so that's really still inexplicable in a decision process, how they were able to establish a program like that where they had no background or basis for it. >> also if torture doesn't work, why would the cia -- and it