but those are separate issues. we've got to find a way to restore a representative democracy if there's any chance for us to get the reforms they're talking about, whether it's minimum wage or whether it's single payer health care or taking on the banks or dealing with wall street. all of these are impossible if we don't get a representative democracy back. >> so given where you think we are on that issue, i mean, how -- what is your correspondence been like with the chair of the dnc, debbie wasserman schultz, have you pushed back on what appears to be some criteria change for the debate rules? >> of course we pushed back. steve, the one running the campaign and the one who has been meeting with the dnc, was quite shocked that the very same person who had uttered the earlier version of the rule flipped and then in almost an orwellian like way, said, no, this has always been the rule.