iran, north korea, we never heard about those in a public forum in 2008 or 2009, but now it's generally accepted that these nation states are targeting the united states. to see that come out was important, i think. but nothing new. let's talk about the actual hack in the first place. you know a lot about it, i know. you were partly involved in helping when the attack happened. what made it difference from previous efforts? >> i think what we have seen is the movement from typical espionage to the use of cyber as a vector, where intelligence services are taking intelligence to collect to behalf of their governments, looking for strategic analysis and opportunities to determine what the united states may or may not do from an economy position, from a defense position, et cetera. in this particular case, what we saw was the operationalizing of