so, again, you don't see that sort of kind of internal, you know, an internal code of honor in that many politicians. so, yes, he was both -- he was both of those john mccains. he was the john mccain who aspired perfection and he's the john mccain who sometimes fell short. >> mike murphy, pick up on that point. you're somebody who worked with mccain in 2000 on that sort of improbable run that he made against george w. bush when h he really earned for all of the country that nickname of maverick. >> yeah. well, he -- he was a rascal. he -- he was driven by honor. his entire focus was serving with honor. but he was also human and he knew his flaws and he was very hard on himself. because he was a -- you know, a flawed person like all of us. so, and he was in the political world where you spend half your time trying to navigate mindfields with honor and the other half of your time