Melinda crane in berlin for deutsche of emma and its also paris for france 24 dont believe everything you see on television or read online especially times of times. Whether its false kovac cures or grand theories and whos to blame this information on corona is spreading there yet with lee so much so that the United Nations says were fighting not one common enemy but to the virus itself and info demick. Conspiracies lies and the coronavirus info demick how conceives use are they thats our topic today in a short edition of the debates france 24 and so it sure velo with you and were pleased to welcome from paris is a form italian minister for European Affairs former member of the Italian Parliament today member of the European Parliament elected on the slate of french president in your next was not hypothetical match Party Central cold see if you are joining us thank you and its a pleasure to welcome here in berlin Francisco Bennett nationally is a member of the german bundestag and she is the Green Party Spokeswoman for european policy initiatives in the southwest of france gentry b. Sociologist of the 1st book was once the students john spoke author of the revolution that wasnt out digital activism favors conservative and if you for joining us happy to be here jen with more times a stroll or in time when weve certainly been exposed to all kinds of ideas since it was then demi to go how much i have to experience if youre skinny traction. So conspiracy theories and so health news are something that seems you know of will the airwaves that means me i need politicians crying crying foul weather in the us or france or elsewhere. But the reality is that fake news has already been around propaganda has always been around and yet there is an uptick in people going on line for information because of course in teams worldwide but its really important to keep the news and perspective in terms of the actual percentage of news and information that people are both. Boomers of and shares of its a very small part of once you start a small part of it but yet were all exposed to it out of a show you an example right now there was a demonstration over the weekend in stuttgart germany against the wall down and on twitter youll process see it they were there was this one tweet with the hashtag relatively were there short films to opinion conspiracy theories its a man wearing a plaque are talking about 5 biggest dictators in the last 100 years. Uncle merkel isnt there the head of the seriously party topping the list gentry is bill gates. The bill and Melinda Gates foundation which has been at the forefront of trying to fight the pandemic would you say who gives us more please george soros is the bogeyman for conspiracy theorists well theyre on different sides of the political cooling right so. On the one hand yes soros has been the bane. Conservative in terms of. Socalled. Terms of nonfunctioning not a lot of funding for conservative causes but yes bill gates people are targeting him of course because of the work the fascination work that foundation has spent for meeting world y. And yes there are ties clearly ties antivaccination movement but if we take a step back really what bill gates of the lot. Or a lot of people conservatives particular on the far right is representing what they call the. Right so if you follow what conservatives are to kill or are doing on line anybody if you see some that are happening worldwide but especially in the United States and my lot down protests really what were seeing any. Wrong. Really trajectory of conservative zing what they call the government right and 1st some vaccines represents a concrete way in which governments actually require him to be too old. To act right getting vaccines or in this case why why this is so much more extreme is the Public Health measures that people like symbolize are foreseeing and you know improving Public Health by requiring confinement were seeing some of those locked down the protests here in germany in fact in several different german cities over this past weekend now francisco polls show that the overwhelming majority of germans in fact support the measures that have been taken by the German Federal government on kovac but there is a vocal minority out there that questions both the governments narrative and its approach now i know youve been talking to some of your constituents who apparently sympathize with those protests can you tell us what theyre telling you. Yeah i was in the beginning quite shocked when i got emails from people i like friends close to me who are you know saying that they will intention go to that demonstration and i dont really want to find out why and my impression was that many of them didnt know who was really behind those demonstrations was going to be in those demonstrations to get it with them like greeces new nasties at such massive there was not a lot of awareness about who is behind it who will be there what are their conspiracy theories that are you know spread in these frameworks and of course still very legitimate concerns by many citizens and we have screens are also voicing some of it and many of those i spoke to because im coming from the southwest of germany with a lot of quarters was transferred to land and many are suffering from the regulation and germany put that you cannot see your family members and less your for example narrates you must be married but you know usually we have a much broader definition of family in germany now which is you know brought it and if you have been for 20 years with somebody you are still not allowed to see that person be married so there will wear into 6070 the day where is this country going to why are we back here if your family i dont understand this and im trying to tell him like its right to protest but please watch out who youre protesting with and as you say there have been concerns that these normal citizens with normal concerns could wind up being instrumental ised for example by the far right or by anti vaccine activists what do these 2 groups the anti vaccine activists and the right wing have in common and do you think that these protests show that the right wing which was marginalized in the beginning of the krona crisis may be about to make a big comeback. You know were trying to look more into who is bringing the scripts together how does it work so were still not completely. You know we dont have all the knowledge we need but really searching into it what we know so far is that of course what combines these 2 groups is that they are skeptical of science that they dont trust scientific knowledge he said the same people who also deny Climate Change so this more general approach to you know how do respond how do we do evidence based politics which is not accepted by you know by far right people to ignore to united trying to change its message they are some approaches that they have together and we also have evidence that actors like russia to day do bring 2 groups together and help to mobilize for those causes in very different sectors of society and were trying to look more deeply into that who is catalyzing and which groups are activated. We are quite sure that there must be some help to get these groups together start to go through let me ask you on this in your native italy the Previous Coalition government you had the 5 Star Movement where there are a lot of answers back service and you have the far right if the koch 19 pandemic lasts that the sort of the shape of things to come in italy. What i mean is that the only it was a fake may face you may say one positive effect sofa all of that good on the virus cries the need that eat a bed thats made these are. Not saying i mean we dont find them anymore i mean theyre way off represented in by law and by the 5 Star Movement they kept they started to be very silent and the i would say that is it is. Now it is. The virus as showing the fundamental feature not only of steam. But i would say of extreme populism because he got them in deadly cocktail feasting rye and 5 Star Movement it gave a strong mistrust effect of science of. Politics based on how well they dance and then leave these as being one of the future also for the nice trust on the social networks during the crisis. I want to pick up on something Francisco Bruckner said hes up homespun conspiracy theories sort of fueled egged on by outside forces that she is looking into lets take a look ordeal university put together a list of top 10 conspiracy theories here a few of them while plenty dont gates we talked about earlier the virus escaped from a chinese lab the other direction u. S. Military exported a virus to china a plots by the big pharmaceutical groups big pharma. Code names he doesnt exist thats another one but topping the list in the alliance for Sciences Article is 5. France with a force of Service WebsiteCatherine Bennett looked into one of the conspiracy theories about the current virus that weve been seeing the most is supposed connection with the building of 5 d. Communications networks around the world take a look at this video in flames engulfing a mobile phone mast in birmingham in the United Kingdom this video was taken on april the 2nd thought he think the fire was set to deliberately since then at least 20 other mass across the country have been burned or vandalized but its not just the equipment telecoms engineers are being harassed while the trying to do their job pitino we are doing the length 5 he. Even lies at a gap say what he did that kill people but where did the theory come from it all began with this man Thomas Callan an american doctor whos currently on probation for treating a patient with a nonapproved drugs in a video posted on you tube of march the 12th dr callan claims that convict 1000 is caused by 5 g. Networks that 5 the radio waves poison cells in the human body and that causes the virus anybody want to make one gas is to where the 1st completely blanketed 5 g. 30 in the world was. Exactly scientists have dismissed cowans claims as complete rubbish saying that 5 radio waves arent Strong Enough to affect the bodys cells all it means system but the video was seen hundreds of thousands of times you tube took it down but people are still sharing copies online and coming up with their own evidence like this map for instance that supposedly shows how the spread of the virus echoes the 5. 00 to 1. 00 out in france except that france doesnt even have 5 g. Yet the map shown in this tweet actually represents the roll out of fiber optic in the country people who believe this theory are actually making it harder to tackle the virus the director of the u. K. S National Health Service so that move all phone mast are vital they all want to connecting the countrys Emergency Services with the people who need them most just go to it without charge against. Thomas by theory who string nets and jerk and wire. Well i mean for him to me its dirty rubbish i mean it is im amazed to where he. Absolutely serious but yeah yeah you got a problem however i mean the 1st problem is that as i say that everybody can say anything today because nobody i trust theres a whole experiment and the circle of fish are saying if you will and we have to walk on it we have to restore its trust who are those who carry out Research Study is. Carry out serious who are good for the benefit or for. The 2nd problem that is the problem of the east up laughing because in your whole video you show there is absolute theory was spread out and then you tube intervene i think that we have to do much more. And we must be much more demanding with the platform because they must be our allies in fighting this kind of absolute theory and in fighting it war against misinformation which otherwise could really threaten our democratic regime that was a site is and i think that is something that which has been put on a much stronger light that during the call in 1000 cries. So let me ask about that very matter because in fact social media including Facebook Twitter they say that they are trying to remove covert 1000 dissin from ation from their platforms an unusual move actually from facebook that has in fact refused to remove quite a bit of other contact how good a job are they doing of policing this content. Social media platforms in general do a terrible job of policing misinformation because their algorithms are actually designed to promote this information and fake news right so the top 10 fake news around komen 1000 that we just saw it was really easy in just a couple words a brief headline to seen what that information is and its also negative information and that type of simplistic. Hyperbole dramatic sensational information is really what social media and its algorithms promote right so if we rely on yes a small group of content moderators or an algorithm that may draw a few keywords in and eliminate them yes that can happen but thats just tinkering with the margins it doesnt address the fundamental problem of the social media platforms which is that theyre designed for very basic simplistic and in many cases false information so a quick follow up in regard to ourselves to the Mainstream Media as i mentioned a franciscan breton or in fact polls show that the vast majority of germans are absolutely confident in the government approach we in the media report quite a bit about the protesters who are not satisfied do we in a way give the conspiracy theorists and purveyors of misinformation too much of a platform. In many ways i think that. The right now what were seeing right if were covering it the media researchers are looking at whats happening with protesters right its the anti koren 1000 protesters who are in the streets right thats just a given and about your question of how many people they represent i think its a mistake this may vary country by country but it is a mistake to under estimate the entire conservative ecosystem that these protests represent right so if you look at far right. Officials that have been elected worldwide over the past 4 years. Including the bracks that vote whether were talking about trump a new west or both and narrow in brazil. Social media yet was a part of what was going on but the other key point is that if we just get rid of that that misinformation its not going to get rid of the ecosystems of grassroots conservatives who are meeting on a regular basis now theyre doing it online but for coping 19 were meeting in Community Centers and all over a lot of western European Countries as well as particularly in the u. S. But i think if we imagine that this is just a coping 1000 issue or its just an information or science issue that were really missing and one more point its more than just the money its more than just russian descent for a nation thats what weve seen throughout history is that. Authoritarian authoritarianism brought on by fascism or right wing movements often happen not because a leader comes in and fills a vacuum. But because there are a lot of Strong Civil Society really supporting that and we cant overlook that support so and i know that francisco wanted to Say Something to the same question if you would francisco be great if you could be brief because we do want to get on to one or 2 other topics but also just a very quick question on facebook it has now announced a new Supervisory Board that supposedly is going to help do a better job of content moderation what do you think is going to work you know we need much more legal frameworks of facebook and co we also need to split facebook from whats app from twitter its all one data were not really thats not acceptable so with its much more legal state action to get that the huge problem for our democracy and the control and to the question do you report to match you know i think there is a lot of there are a lot of wherries out there about the Current Situation i dont know anybody whos not us in the south big life question so its understandable and none of us has all her knowledge and were still getting into more danger so i think you know we should not underestimate how many people have to out and i think we need to have reporting that shows who is really demonstrate and who is behind it so its not enough to say there are 10000 people in the street but your job is also to so was the i know how many races were there how many you know signs did you have that its a big lead in germany. And yes overall probably the biggest majority in germany is looking for some vaccine and is hoping that they can get one and only minorities afraid of it but still you know its important to report on that phenomenon but francisca run around haunted by something jeffrey said earlier which is that these platforms that we all humans are cater to simply stick rest issues there its what theyre built for so rotten do. No i you know. We also laugh to come up with their easy answers that understandable to have a Clear Communication so im not against saying you know its something must be complicated and only then is it true. But what we have to avoid is that we have you know really say you said we have races we have these artists you know thats what we have to control and thats where facebook is not going far enough and not doing its job as well we need more legal constraints on facebook and co and as i said we need to split it up that they dont not only not acceptable. What do you think the center goes it would you agree that we need to actually break up facebook. Well we certainly need a new approach. At least to your level because it is clear that the situation all global and go on to go potty which i was also raised to fundamentally shows on the dhaka and on the protection and they i agree with that francisco we have also to promote or through out the sources on the social ne