Reporter. Just like everyone else and shes looking for answers and thankfully with the help of jamie expect. Thank you this is not life as we know it. In this together our new web series. Its a deadly sin. And the whim of nature. It motivates us. And threatens to ruin us. Greed. Desire. That drives our. Country to be dangerous. Why are we greedy. We go in search of answers when a duck. Imagery film. Starts may 21st c. W. Hello and welcome i am melinda crane in berlin for a touch of out there and its also to go in paris for france 24 dolts believe everything you see on television or read online especially in these times of sense. Whether its false covert cures or grand theories and whos to blame this information on corona is spreading there yet with lee so much so that the United Nation says were fighting not one common enemy but to the virus itself and info demick conspiracies lies and the coronavirus info demick how conceives use are they thats our topic today in a short edition of the debate france 24 and so it should follow with you and were pleased to welcome from harris hes a formidable talent minister for European Affairs former member of the Italian Parliament today member of the European Parliament elected on the slate of french president in your next was not Party Central corsi it for joining us thank you and its a pleasure to welcome here in berlin francisco but now she is a member of the german bundestag and she is the Green Party Spokeswoman for european policy initiatives in the southwest of france gentry b. Sociologist of the 1st book was once a students john spoke author of the revolution that wasnt out digital activism savers concern it and if you for joining us happy to be here jen with more time to scroll or in time when i mean weve certainly been exposed to all kinds of ideas since was more than democrats know how much have conspiracy theories give you traction. So conspiracy theories and socalled news are something that seemed you know of will the airwaves it means to me i need politicians crying crying foul weather in us or france or elsewhere. But the reality is that fake news has always been around propaganda has always been around and yes there is an uptick in and people going on line for information because of cortines world why but its really important to keep a fake news and purse factor in terms of the actual percentage of news and information that people are both hoons boomers of and shares of. A very small part of once you start up small part of it but yet were all exposed to it out of show you an example right now there was a demonstration over the weekend in stuttgart germany against the wall down and on twitter youll process see it they were there was this one tweet the backlash theyre going to be were there short films to opinion and a conspiracy theories its a man wearing a placard talking about 5 biggest dictators in the last 100 years. Uncle merkel is there the head of the seriously party topping the list gentry is bill gates. The bill and Melinda Gates foundation which has been at the forefront of trying to fight the pandemic would you say who gives us more please george soros is the bogeyman for conspiracy theorists well theyre on different sides of the political cooling right so. On the one hand yes soros has been the bane of. Conservative in terms of. Socalled. Terms of nonfunctioning not a lot of funding programs are going to cost but yes bill gates people are targeting him of course because of the work the fascination were foundation has spent earning world y. And yet there are ties clearly tie antivaccination movement but if we take a step back really what will be a similar law. Are a lot of people conservatives particular on the far right is representing what they call the. Right so if you follow what conservatives are to kill or are doing online and even if you see some tests that are happening worldwide but especially in the United States and had locked down protests really what were seeing are. Long. Really trajectory of conservative being what they call Big Government right and 1st some vaccines represents a concrete way in which governments actually require him to be too old. To act right getting vaccines or in this case why why this is so much more extreme is the Public Health measures that people like symbolize are foreseeing and you know improving Public Health by requiring confinements were seeing some of those a lockdown the protests here in germany in fact in several different german cities over this past weekend now francisca brought their polls show that the overwhelming majority of germans in fact support the measures that have been taken by the German Federal government on kovac but there is a vocal minority out there that questions both the governments narrative and its approach now i know youve been talking to some of your constituents who apparently sympathize with those protests can you tell us what theyre telling you. Yeah i was in the beginning quite shocked when i got emails from people i like friends close to me who are you know saying that they will intend to go to that demonstration and i dont really want to find out why and my impression was that many of them didnt know who was really behind those demonstrations was going to be in those demonstrations to get it with them like greeces new nasa is at such a massive there was not a lot of awareness about who is behind it who will be there what are their conspiracy theories that are you know spread in these frameworks and of course still very legitimate concerns by many citizens and we have screens are also voicings out and many of those i spoke to because im coming from the southwest of germany with a lot of orders was transferred to land and many are suffering from the regulation and germany put that you cannot see your family members and less your for example narry if you must be married but you know usually we have a much broader definition of family in germany now which is you know brought it and if you have been for 20 years with somebody you are still not allowed to see that person because you may be married so there were people who are into 6070 that they where is this country going to why are we bad or if our family i dont understand this and im trying to tell him like its right to protest but please watch out who youre protesting with and as you say there have been concerns that these normal citizens with normal concerns could wind up being instrumental ised for example by the far right or by anti vaccine activists what do these 2 groups the anti vaccine activists and the right wing have in common and do you think that these protests show that the right wing which was marginalized in the beginning of the krona crisis may be about to make a big comeback. You know were trying to look more into who is bringing to scripts together how does it really work so were still not completely. You know we dont have all the knowledge we need but really searching is that what we know so far is that of course what combines these 2 groups is that they are skeptical of science that they dont trust scientific knowledge he said the same people who also deny Climate Change so this more general approach to you know how do reef how do we do evidence based politics which is not accepted by you know by far right people to ignore it united trying to change its message they are some approaches that they have together and we also have evidence that actors like russia to day to green to groups to gather and help to mobilize for those causes in very Defense Sector as of society and were trying to look more deeply into that who is catalyzing and which groups are activated. We are quite sure that there must be some help to get these groups together start to go through let me ask you on this in your native italy the Previous Coalition government you had the 5 Star Movement where there are a lot of anti virus source and you have the far right if the koch 19 pandemic lasts that the sort of the shape of things to come in italy. Well i mean is that the only it was a fake face you may say one positive effect sofa all of that good on the viral surprise anybody a that they made these are the boxing i mean they dont find them anymore i mean theyre way off represented in by lemond by the 5 Star Movement they kept they started to be very silent and the i would say that is the. Supposed to fake now it is. The virus as showing the fundamental feature not only of steam. But i would say if simple because anything you got there in it deadly cocktail feasting right and movement it is stronger than mistrust effect of science. Its based on how and they didnt and this has been one of the feature also for the nice trust on the social networks during the crisis. I want to pick up on something Francisco Bruckner said these are whole spawn conspiracy theories sort of fuel then egged on by outside forces that she is looking into lets take a look or no university put together of a list of top 10 since very serious youre a few of them well plenty dont gates we talked about earlier the virus escaped from a chinese lab the other direction u. S. Military exported the virus to china appliance by the pharmaceutical groups big pharma. Code names he doesnt exist thats another one but topping the list in the alliance for Sciences Article is 5. France for the force of Service Website Catherine Bennett look states are one of the conspiracy theories about the current virus that weve been seeing the most is supposed connection with the building of 5 to Communications Networks around the world take a look at this video in flames engulfing a mobile phone mast in birmingham in the United Kingdom this video was taken on april the 2nd or 3rd he think the fire was set to deliberately since then at least 20 other mass across the country have been burned or vandalized but its not just the equipment telecoms engineers are being harassed while theyre trying to do their job to do you know what youre doing that youre length 5 he. Even lies that age gap they were here that killed people but where did the theory come from it all began with this man thomas cowan an american doctor whos currently on probation for treating a patient with a nonapproved drugs in a video posted on you tube of march the 12th dr callan claims that convict 1000 is caused by 5 g. Networks that 5 the radio waves poison cells in the human body and that causes the virus anybody want to make one gas is to where the 1st completely blanketed 5 g. 30 in the world was. Exactly. Scientists have dismissed cowans claims as complete rubbish saying that 5 radio waves arent Strong Enough to affect the bodys cells all it means system but the video was seen hundreds of thousands of times you tube took it down but people are still sharing copies online and coming up with their own evidence like this map for instance that supposedly shows how the spread of the virus echoes the 5 to world out in france except that france doesnt even have 5 g. Yet the map shown in this tweet actually represents the roll out of fiber optic in the country people who believe this theory are actually making it harder to tackle the virus the director of the u. K. S National Health Service so that mobile phone masts are vital they all want to connecting the countrys Emergency Services with the people who need them most. Thats undergone. On this theory who string nets and jerks and wire. Well i mean from the mean start of the rubbish i mean that is im amazed to where he. Said absolute fear is but yeah and yeah you got a problem however i mean the 1st problem is that as i say that everybody can say anything today because nobody i trust theres a whole experiment and the socalled official saying if you will and we have to walk on it we have to restaff leash its trust to walk those who carry out Research Study is. Carry out serious who are good for the benefit or for the 2nd problem that is the problem of the east up latham because that in your whole view you show that this absolute theory was spread out and then you tube intervene i think that we have to do much more. And we must be much more than mending with that is the platform because they must be our allies in fighting this kind of absolute theory and in fighting it war against misinformation which otherwise could really threaten our democratic regime in our society is and i think that is something which has been put on a much stronger light that during the call been 1000 cries. So let me ask about that very matter because in fact social media including Facebook Twitter they say that they are trying to remove covert 1000 dissin from ation from their platforms an unusual move actually from facebook that has in fact refused to remove quite a bit of other contact how good a job are they doing of policing this content. Social media platforms in general do a terrible job of policing misinformation because their algorithms are actually designed to promote dissent from ation and fake news right so the top 10 fake news around coben 1000. 00 that we just saw it was really easy in just a couple words of brief headline to seen what that information is and its also negative information and that type of simplistic. Hyperbole dramatic sensational information is really what social ringback media and its algorithms promote right so if we rely on yes a small group of content moderators or an algorithm that may draw a few keywords in and eliminate them yes that can happen but thats just tinkering with the margins it doesnt address the fundamental problem of the social media platforms which is that theyre designed for barry basic simplistic and in many cases false information so a quick follow up in regard to ourselves to the Mainstream Media as i mentioned a franciscan branton or in fact polls show that the vast majority of germans are absolutely confident in the government approach we in the media report quite a bit about the protesters who are not satisfied do we in a way give the conspiracy theorists and purveyors of misinformation too much of a platform. In many ways i think that. The right now what were seeing right if were covering it the media researchers are looking at whats happening with protesters right its the anti koren 1000 protesters who are in the streets right thats just a given and about your question of how many people they represent i think its a mistake this may vary country by country but it is a mistake to under estimate the entire conservative ecosystem that these protests represent right so if you look at far right. Officials that have been elected worldwide over the past 4 years. Including the bracks that vote whether were talking about trump a new west or both and narrow in brazil. Social media yet was a part of what was going on but the other key point is that if we just get rid of that that misinformation its not going to get rid of the ecosystems of grassroots conservatives who are meeting on a regular basis now theyre doing it online but for coping 19 were meeting in Community Centers and all over a lot of western European Countries as well as particularly in the u. S. But i think if we imagine that this is just a coping 1000 issue or its just an information or science issue that were really missing and one more point its more than just the money its more than just russian descent for a nation thats what weve seen throughout history is that. Authoritarian authoritarianism brought on by fascism or right wing movements often happen not because a leader comes in and fill the vacuum. But because there are a lot of Strong Civil Society really supporting that and we cant overlook that support so and i know that francisco wanted to Say Something to the same question if you would francisco be great if you could be brief because we do want to get on to one or 2 other topics but also just a very quick question on facebook it has now announced a new Supervisory Board that supposedly is going to help do a better job of content moderation what do you think is going to work you know we need a much more Legal Framework so facebook and co we also need to split facebook from whats app from twitter its all one data were not really thats not acceptable so we need to much more illegal state action to get that the huge problem for our democracy and the control and to the question do you report to match you know i think there is a lot of there a lot of where is out there about the Current Situation i dont know anybody whos not us in the south big life question so its understandable and none of us has all or not i were still getting into more data so i think you know we should not underestimate how many people have to out and i think we need to have reporting that shows who is really demonstrate and who is behind it so its not enough to say there are 10 people in the street but your job is also to show who is the i know how many races where there how we need you know signs did you have that and its a big majority and yes overall probably the biggest majority in germany is looking for some vaccine and is hoping that we can get one and only minorities afraid of it but still you know its important to report a National Minute but Francisca Rattner on hold or something gentry said earlier which is that these platforms that we all humans are cater to simply stick rest of you there its what theyre built for so wrote in your. No i you know. We are also apt to come up with their easy answers that are understandable to have a Clear Communication so im not against saying you know something must be complicated and only then is it true. But what we have to avoid is that we have you know really save you said we have researchers we have these artists you know thats what we have to control and thats where facebook is not going far enough and not doing its job and thats why we need more legal constraints on facebook and co and as i said we need to split it up that they dont normally its not acceptable. What do you think the center goes it would you agree do we need to actually break up facebook. When we certainly need a new approach. At least to your level because it is clear that these are situational global and go only go which was also raised a fundamentally shows on. And on the protection and they i agree with that france is we have also to promote or through out the sources on the social network which is not being done in a simple way but authorities sources and not so much rubbish as you have seen in the near before we have to demote them that these facts as full as always miss or misleading and then being bit we have to be very effective in doing the set and we have our own got on vent all content that provoke if you can or a ball out harm now all these to do it is not being done enough and that is why i think that all seeing the light of one thing cries myself that he not only because of the carving i think rises to promote at least if you will and that you were to get out there approach in the new regulation especially full social platform both on seeing. The issue of the story just and there and active role in fighting fighting against a fake you was amusing for me. So given the limitations of what social media can or are willing to do on their own lets talk a little bit about what we can and should expect from political leaders the french government put up a coping 19 detox website that was aimed at exposing dissin from ation on the coronavirus but it quickly found itself compelled to take this website down so let me ask you this center goes the french the french Journalists Association said that the website overstepped got the Governments Authority and violated the principle of freedom of opinion would you agree with that. I think it is the street is this and i think it was excessive and i think that in this a story called moment in these political face we have to find new means of fighting to provide and. On the social network and the media also the older media of certainty is a constitutional freedom also of course protect the in france the freedom of expression i do say that we have also in other right as citizens in france and those who have the right to be properly informed the right not to be. Constant the victim of propaganda so i think that if the france me yeah we are so worried about their website of the french government when i mean i think that should also do something more to ensure our freedom of information and to ensure free all information hes. Putting forces to fight to fight misinformation unfortunately and not only in france let me say that it does happen in that it will be the opposite it is not the Group Traditional media who are trying. To influence in a positive way their way information hes around though hes denied in this social net going to social media i 48 the opposition the other way around and for the older tradition and you speak for example they are more and more looking for sensational news more and more looking for Conspiracy Theory says went in some somehow because they had to run after dinner ok. Yeah well give us an example of that. Well i mean thats the main example of the campaign i think it takes us to some some some campaign that they even frank leading newspaper are doing based on something that they know they havent verified. That they said skull piece and. I dont want to mention newspapers but they think that in france and since i think for me since 2017 ive seen so many examples of these and also the go all smaller campaign against men youre found. Around by nature of france newspaper without property that we find the sources and i think that this is an effect of a social network a way you know of running the information just treat your group so there are 2 ways to look at this question one is what is the role of the government and what is the role of the news media and what weve been talking about is this tension between. The governments right the role of the state and the role of the individual right and so when we talk about fake news i think we havent really defined. What it actually is right because you also have a country like russia where 3 doctors so far have fallen from the floor as we have no idea what happened they spoke out about conditions with the krona virus theres also a fake news law in russia now in the name of protect you know promoting Accurate Information in russia around covert 19 but the result is actually. You know a way to you know diminish. Free speech right its just a ruse and donald trump talks about critiquing fake news so what are we today really critiquing the other really important piece it is that weve been talking about is how is the Mainstream Media a part of this distribution of socalled fake news. Youre using when is it critical city heard some say that. Publications from mr roberts are chasing after sensationalist. So some of it depends on what news outlet right but even very legitimate. Means stream media is that journalists often have a 2 sided approach to an issue right so especially as science is so new around cope at 19. And by the way we have this idea that science is this perfect truth which of course its not and its changing because its changing so quickly in fact the World Health Organization keeps changing what theyre what theyve recommended as more information has come forward that journalists want to present both sides so if donald trump for example or a politician says yes this drug is important what i see even legitimate outlets in the u. S. Like n. P. R. Or the New York Times will say well donald trump and some people say that you know clorox should news on. You know to prevent or treat kovan 1000 but when we talk to doctors they Say Something else right and so and thats an extreme example but i think that this idea of 2 sided ness doesnt work with science and thats what were talking about today let me come back to recommendations like the one that was made by President Trump that people might give some thought to ingesting either disinfectant or bleach francisca brander you have expressed concern that the corona crisis could actually wind up fostering and fueling populism what do we do when it is political leaders themselves like trump but also say brazils boston r. O. Who are purveying this information. Yeah how many times have i thought how this crisis would have gone differently if we had instead of. Obama or Hillary Clinton they would 1st have called a g. 20 meeting we would have had some concerted action yet scary to have instead somebody like sean whos promoting fake news and conspiracy theories for me as you are in it just shows that we have to take out. A lot of cuties that a west of us would have undertaken in such a crisis so for me you know i cant do much about the us scary and i pity my friends who who are you know very worried about their own country and we can only strengthen the Progressive Forces and those who still go with the truth and with you know Scientific Evidence that changes every day but still you know it evolves and it and it exists and so i think we as europeans have to take on more our have to be more concerted specially we have to be united and solidarity because if we dont get it nobody else will help us and Jan Chris Reddy maybe also to you the question of a top down decision from ation like that which has been pervaded by President Trump is a part of the difficulty that its very difficult to contradict or deny false information like the plague claim without immediately being falling into the trap of polarization essentially being stamped by Trump Supporters as as yourself part of the conspiracy. Absolutely the role of idiology is crucial here it doesnt and ways it doesnt matter what type of information is put out when you look at factors like idiology so for those of us who study this question around fake news there are a variety of factors that make a difference education level is one but idiology is key i can see on social media conservatives analyzing the exact same article as progressive and coming up with extremely different extraordinary only different reaction even beyond the question of right even with jim it articles about certain. You know drugs that are being tested right now very different viewpoints and in terms of your point about the how top down it is again we have to in order to combat this we have to start from the bottom up right so conservatives are effective because of a lot of organizing thats happening as well as of course money conservative media x. Cetera but on the ground right so what kind of media education is happening Media Literacy lindt literacy science literacy right now is really key and with so many people out of work right now i think it would behoove a lot of especially the more democratic countries to consider putting a lot of people to work in this type of grassroots effort for science and for information that serves the Public Health yes so you have donald trump who got his message was you know we talk about liege playing the chinese call you to hong virus. And you have to try me well they dont have belief that they have. Legal lets take a look. Its overwhelming our medical system migrants are a lot of the virus is killing doctors. Its airborne and there are multiple car a little prayer everyone stay home loans that are floating around much our numbers are now dropping on his or her mothers. We wore masks the real crime you know to make of the tower of pisa starting to leave your son. What do you make of that for instance that was put up last month. About the video you just shown the. I going to be very blunt with you im very concerned with a blow by like this Information Campaign run by china. And not only china but china has played a key role in these and was was im still very concerned with the fact that these propaganda as being supported by the part of the young government during the crisis we have seen therefore it means that we can to my face the moment and meet us at the face of movement basically promoting the chinese propriety and making things of the day and that germany france that never had the 30 and there is the 8th in this report by you and over emphasizing the support received by china also by russia but there was a that i would say that the chinese provide guy that was in it and he made a nice head by the then government itself and i think that is to me disturbing for the European Union i think that the chinese provide and that has been very strong its way in europe and theres been also strong in the war that theyre going to is ation within the United Nations i dont see why the Security Council is not acting very quickly because they called me back and they called me one thing for example it is a threat to International Stability and there again youve got shy now russia breaking down and slowing down so i think that me and the major issue which is certainly as it was say before not only leaned in but it has been not in the fight by calling 1000 and i think that is something that we have one child very close and to the east is not. European parliament yet that youve got the European Union sort of in the middle of this battle between the super powers france just the brother he had the. One voice that was chastised for go along with china daily communist. Or a new theory for a china settlement a pretty a nationalist open world are calling for more cooperation they removed a reference from reverse the start of the pandemic originated in china your thoughts yeah i answered very worrying what chinese insulins is doing right now already in the u. And i think we have to be extremely careful about it but let me also be very clear its dad we as european need to help each other much more strongly and you know yes i know and its elite and i sorry germany did its have exports stop off the medical devices you need a very easily to italy that was terrible it was sold wrong and yes the chinese did have a better p. R. Campaign around it but still again do our job and if now we dont invest enough and its a leader who will not save the Italian Companies yes the chinese investors will come and buy them out you know if we are that stupid to allow that its our own mistakes lets not try to chinese or lets make sure we do the job we have to do so were just about at the end of our show but jen trading if you would very briefly please will we see the info demick peter out of its own accord as societies start to move out of lock down and back into some semblance of normal life. So i think there is not going to be a big change in the problem with fake news and dissent from asia and until some of these broader political and social class issues are really addressed and thats something that were doing at the ends of the 2 are. So silly. Were studying is so my advice is to Pay Attention to people on the ground and also Pay Attention to scientists and social scientists who are studying it so that policymakers can enact policies that actually make sense and are not at the bidding of a Silicon Valley so even if we see the pandemic when the info demick may well stay with us thank you very much to all of our guests for joining us for this special edition of the debate with daughter bella and false that cut by for not. Good. Morrow. There tiny pension a dangerous virus is bacteria. But they can be very useful. Although thats often forgotten these days. Join us in a microscopic world full of fascinating discoveries. To fall to decay. Coming up on the. Ice cream world class you like are very convincing where. Whether your ideas are big or small and you do it all real its not for. Small holes and sustainable. Cause. I want. I rank. 30 minutes on d w. This state of emergency is the normal people around the world are documenting these dramatic times. Theyre keeping the corona diary and welcoming us into their lives they let us get as a close and personal as the pandemic will allow. The diaries of stars made easy for on t w. Nor indeed what do they dream of at night living. As cleaners they see the face of horror. Their job censoring for the social media industry. In manila there are thousands of socalled content monitors day for day they scream terrifying images from online platforms. Up to 20000. 00 times a day the horrific job for starvation wage the strain is enormous. The cleaners or sworn to secrecy they are not allowed to talk about their work. And no one asks how they are doing. I quit. I need to stop or something walk up and. Do social networks have any social responsibility at all. The cleaners social medias shadow industry starts to names on t. W. This is d. W. News and these are our top stories large protests have taken place across germany against the governments coronavirus restrictions for a 2nd consecutive weekend the demonstrators turned out despite the easing of restrictions in recent weeks a clue to conspiracy theorists
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