where osama bin laden is concerned. it's assassination. as to torture, i don't know and i don't think any of us how much of the information we used to track down bin laden came from either our use of these harsh techniques or perhaps the use of pakistanis use and small clues they may have passed along. none of us know that. my point is that, again, we as grown-ups have to recognize, accept the possibility that maybe an outcome many of us think is a good one, the killing of bin laden might be somehow associated at some point in its history with an outcome -- with a method, i should say, that many of us don't like at all. instead of turning hand springs -- >> stich, i want to do what i'm sure you've done to your yil students at law school. throw a hypothetical. train and presume without the enhanced interrogation -- i'm not going to call it torture --