right is in the context of a union that was actually invented by the church. i mean, didn't have marriage before the traditional religions came. in the cave men didn't have marriage. they ran around and did whatever they want. they were cave discos they could have as many girlfriends in marriage they had to perpetuate the race. i'm being facetious here because the point of the matter is that people of faith like you, pastor have to convince the secular judges that this is not -- this is way, way beyond their authority. and i don't know if you are going to be able to do it. >> well, i think you have to make a secular argument and a secular society and you said that a couple years ago when you talked about christians who thumped their bibles to support traditional marriage. i agreed with you you have to do more than cite bible verses there are psychological sociological reasons and logical reasons. if you expand the definition of marriage to two men and