111,000 times which is wild. What was your reaction to this news when you first learned about it on monday . My reaction was shock. Like many people, i have friends and colleagues and former classmates who are International Students and i worried about them and how they could be affected because this decision throws a lot of peoples lives into confusion. It really does. Before we get into that confusion, for people who arent fully read in on this and dont know all the details, why dont you walk us through what you know about what ice is saying, who might be impacted and which universities in the u. S. Might be impacted as well. Sure. So at the start of the pandemic, when schools first began to go online only, ice said to students who are here, International Students here on student visas, they were going to waive the rules that said students couldnt attend online only courses in the United States and they said they would keep up that rule through the entirety of the national emergency. But for some reason, two days ago, any student in the fall semester looking to attend an online only university, if they were here, a university that chosen had gone online only, if they were here on a student visa, they would have to leave the country or go to another university that offered inperson classes. Something you pointed out on twitter that i think is important, a lot of people dont even know that ice runs a major portion of the Student Visa Program. Ice runs something called the student and Exchange Visitor program, and they operate in some ways the enforcement aspect of the Student Visa Program ensuring that students register their status with the universities and that universities are tracking with International Students that are meeting the visa requirements. Do you have any sense of what ices motivation is behind this . Have they given any reasoning . You know, its hard to count exactly why they did this because when they announced it, they offered no explanation for why they were walking back their former policy but since then, we learned a little bit more. Particularly yesterday, the senior official performing duties of the deputy secretary of Homeland Security ken said it was to encourage schools to reopen and as we know, the president pushing hard for universities to reopen in the fall. In addition, this fits into the patterns of the administration of moving to push back against illegal immigration during the pandemic. Right, and i think thats what a lot of people are kind of pining, although we havent gotten a full response or reasoning, the White House Press secretary just this afternoon was asked about this during her press briefing and she said, quote, you dont get an online visa for the university of phoenix, so why would you get it then for another university . Whats your response to that . Right, so as she noted, the previous rules before the pandemic, it didnt allow people to come to the United States on a student visa for online only classes but key differences between new student visas and what we do with the students already here studying. Importantly, its very hard to take online only classes from peoples home country for reasons of time and technology. If youre a student in india and china, you might have have to attend a 12 00 p. M. Class at 1 00 a. M. In the morning and of course, thats going to be far too difficult for many students. In addition, the students already here have access to american technological resources and the assurance theyre not subject to state scensorship bu those students from, say, china, might worry about state censorship if they try to be honest in their online classes, so its a very different situation and canada who had the same rules as us at the start of the pandemic has gone the opposite direction, all students studying in canada internationally they can stay if their university chooses to go online only. I was going to ask you about some of the challenges that your friends or other International Students are going to face, i think, if you want to expand on that more, even with china, its unclear if theyd be able to use some of these programs that were able to access here. Exactly right. For instance, the g Suite Product google docs and drive, other products do not operate in china. If a university wanted to require their students to use that for course work, they wouldnt be able to use it. Another major issue is peoples feelings of safety and security. There are so many lgbt students here in the United States who would only be able to come out and feel safe in the United States, if forced to return to their home countries might be at the risk of persecution or harm if it was ever discovered that they were lgbt. Interesting, i hadnt thought about that either. I think we know this but to specify, what about schools offering a hybrid of inperson online classes, would that be exempt from this then . So yeah, under the rules that ice laid out yesterday, although its important to note, we havent actually seen the final guidance. Ice said that students could take what they call a hybrid model where theyre taking the minimum number of online only courses but at least some inperson courses. So thats why we dont yet know what the full impact of this rule is going to be. Will universities that had already chosen to go online only walk it back and switch to the hybrid model . We dont know yet. Just because were taking in some responses from people on facebook and youtube right now, krista saying theyre a hugely important part of the Higher Education population and resulting talent. Can you speak to that a little bit . Thats absolutely right. The United States is is a world leader in International Education. We have by far the largest number of foreign students here and they pour billions of dollars into the u. S. Economy annually, while living here and paying tuition. For many universities, foreign students actually fund the scholarships that allow underprivileged american citizens to go to school for free, so if we take these foreign students away, we force them to drop out by saying that theyre not allowed to stay in the United States, not only are we potentially taking away their tuition dollars from the university but were taking away our reputation as a leader in International Education and were taking away all that money paid into local economies where these students live. What about ph. D. Students . What are you hearing about that . I mean, a lot of those students are International Students. Thats right. And while ice hasnt issued any specific guidance on this, its likely that because the ph. D. Students generally arent still taking courses, they would likely not be affected by this because this regulation is about students who are still required to take courses, either in an undergrad, k12 program and those students writing their theses would probably not be affected, especially true if they require inperson lab work for ph. D. S. About 15 of the student body in the university of california campus here in california are International Students. As we talk about some of the impact that they have, they make up a huge amount of our university population, so what kind of Economic Impact do you think that this could have on our universities, if these students then say, hey, im not going to return or maybe ill go to canada to take a class instead. It could have a real economic blow because we know especially when it comes to universities in california and Tech Industry issues that International Students are often the ones who come to the United States and start businesses after they graduate school and in many cases have driven major entrepreneurship from california and the rest of the United States. So if all of those students say, well, the United States is just isnt worth going to anymore and choose to go elsewhere, its us losing out on all their talent and everything they bring to this country. Aaron, stick with us. Well head to commercial break and continue this conversation on our Facebook Page and youtube page as we take this break and when we come back, were going to talk about reports that berkeley is trying to kcircumvet this rule by how about poor fred wilson . What a shame. So soon after retiring. I hear his wife needed help with the funeral expenses. Thats ridiculous he had social security. When my brother died, his wife received a check from social security, all right for 255 the funeral costs were well over 8,000. How on earth did she pay for it . Fortunately, my brother bought additional Life Insurance before he retired. Whew i bet that cost a pretty penny, huh . Not with Colonial Penn. Coverage options start at just 9. 95 a month. Less than 35 cents a day. I have it myself. We both do. Both of you . Thats right. Neither of us had to answer any Health Questions or take a physical exam. In fact, no one our age can be turned down. For any health reason. No one . No one . Nope. Hm. Is this a plan that offers a lot of protection at first, and then reduces it little by little each year . No ive had this coverage for years. My benefit never decreases as i get older. Your rates go up every year, right . No, not at all. Friends keep telling friends about guaranteed acceptance whole Life Insurance from Colonial PennLife Insurance company. With this coverage, your premium never increases for any reason, and your benefit wont decrease simply because you grow older. Options start at just 9. 95 a month. If youre age 50 to 85, you cannot be turned down because of your health. Colonial penn specializes in protection for mature men and women. To find out more, call now. male announcer call now and youll also get this free beneficiary planner and this free prescription savings card welcome back. Back with former immigration lawyer and current policy council, aaron melnyk. There have been reports that students at uc berkeley are rallying to create an inperson course for students with visas so they can circumvent ices decision. Can they do that . Thats a good question and unfortunately, until i see the exact details of it, i cant say for sure, but i think it shows what youll have a lot of universities working to find creative ways around this, if they can, but im sure that University Legal teams are working around the clock right now trying to figure this out before the deadlines. And on that note, the Student Newspaper for Sacramento State here in Northern California as well, they just sent out a message theyve emailed International Students saying theyll help enroll them in an inperson or hybrid course to allow them to stay in the u. S. Do you think this is the way schools are going to go now . It might be one way, but regardless of whether it works or not, its a good sign that the University Communities are recognizing how serious this impact can be on International Students and are rallying to come together to find a way to come together to fix it and if lawsuits work and stop this policy, that may ultimately settle the issue, but it is heartening to see everyone come together and recognize how much damage this might do to their fellow classmates. You know, were seeing a lot of responses. We look at online reaction and i know we already touched on this a little bit, people saying, this isnt their country and we can take classes from their home country, simple as that. What do you say to that . The same issue before. Its very easy, as for a student, prince, wfor instance,s in San Francisco but attending uc berkeley to take classes but in india or china, what you are asking them to do in that instance is potentially ask them to attend classes at 1 00 a. M. , 2 00 a. M. , 3 00 a. M. Every single day and have to selfsensor if theyre in foreign governments or not have access to the same technology. And ill add two other points. Many students have been here for years with leases, they may have families or other things they cant just get rid of in four to six weeks when the semester starts. For those students, this could be really financially damaging and destroy their lives in the United States, to make it so they never want to come back and finally, it might spread covid. A lot of borders are shut right now, its hard to ask tens of thousands of people to suddenly leave the United States. For sure. If theres even flights to get them out at this point. I saw someone reply to you on twitter, the tweet that went viral and argued this is a good move by ice. Many u. S. Citizens who are studying abroad have had to come back to the u. S. So theyre arguing theres no difference than what the United States is saying we should be doing. Do you see a difference there . What is the difference in your opinion . Absolutely. Because most American Students studying abroad are there for one semester, as part of a program through their American University. Thats not what were talking about here. Were talking about students who come to the United States for four years for an Undergrad Program or potentially much longer for a grad degree or a ph. D. So in many cases, were talking some people who have now been in the United States for six to eight to ten years pursuing their undergrad to a ph. D. Who have built their lives here as they study for a degree. Its very different from an american student one semester abroad who has to return to the American University afterwards anyway. For sure. Okay, big news today. Harvard and m. I. T. Are suing. What do you know about these lawsuits . What we know, harvard is suing on the grounds that the decision made by ice is arbitrary and in particular, they point to ices decision at the start of the pandemic to lift rules on online only courses and allow students to remain here and not jeopardize their visa status if theyre switching to online only. When that first happened, ice said they intended to keep up the policy through the entire pandemic, but now with four to six weeks before classes start in august, they have suddenly reversed that decision, with absolutely no notice even though there are tens of thousands of people who relied on it. Theyre hoping a judge will order ice to restore the discretion they had before they made their decision two days ago. Do you believe theres legal basis for ice to do this . Well, ice may have the Legal Authority. I would say, ice has the Legal Authority to set rules when it comes to students but as weve seen with the daca decision, just because the agency has the authority to do something, doesnt mean they can do it in a way thats arbitrary, capricious or doesnt follow rules. Its possible a judge could say ice didnt consider the factors and the disruptions this would cause to peoples lives when they made their choice. What is your advice to International Students right now who are seeing this and are clearly very much in limbo . The first thing i would say is im sorry youre going through this. This is stressful and difficult and i know. Then i would say, wait a little bit. We already have seen a lawsuit filed less than 24 hours after, or less than 48 hours after the decision was made and is likely were going to see more. Judges will likely understand this is a timesensitive matter and so, i dont encourage anyone to uproot their lives and start buying flights home just yet. Last question before we head to our commercial break, someones chiming in on our Facebook Page basically with how to report undocumented immigrants and i think we should debunk, theres a difference between an undocumented immigrant and being a student here on a visa. Of course. What we are talking about entirely is legal immigrants here through legal student visas. Many of whom have been here for years following every single rule. Right. Simple answer, thats the facts. Right. All right, aaron, thank you. Were going to keep chatting for a couple more minutes on the commercial break. Okay, welcome back. You may have heard the phrase over the past few months become an ally. What does it mean though and how can you do it . Its a big question a lot of people are asking right now and kumasi aaron talked with carlo wallace, a civil rights activist and coauthor of the Fairness Campaign and Racial Justice. What does alliship mean to you . Yeah, i tend to not use the word allies, but you know, okay with it. I think too often, alliship has white people thinking that our role is to help people of color, almost a good hearted, oh, we have to help you because youre in trouble. And i believe that its actually about standing together for justice for all of us that throughout the history of this country,