Good evening from washington. I am mehdi hasan in for chris hayes. Donald trump could end up behind bars next year for conspiracy to obstruct justice. And if he does, it may very well be because of a new testimony by someone identified by the justice department, only as Trump Employee 4. Now that we have had all weekend to digest the new Superseding Indictment for donald trump from doj special counsel jack smith and the classified documents case, employee number fours involvement seems particularly notable. According to the indictment, he played a key role in what appears to be a Pressure Campaign from trump and his co defendant, Valet Walt Nauta and maralago property manager carlos de oliveira, to delete Security Footage from the club after it was subpoenaed by prosecutors. And now, it sure seems like employee 4 could be talking, it turns out, he is an i. T. Worker for maralago named yuscil taveras. According to one new report, taveras himself received a Target Letter from the department of justice after trump was first indicted in florida. But taveras himself has not yet been indicted, and to be clear, as of now, we do not know if taveras is formally cooperating with jack smiths office. That said, as the Washington Post reports, quote, taveras offered information implicating all three defendants in an alleged conspiracy to cover up evidence. And we also know that following trumps indictment, taveras switched lawyers. He was previously represented by the same lawyer representing trumps codefendant, walt nauta. As the post reports, quote, once taverass position puts him potentially at odds with nauta, a judge reviewed the issue. A second lawyer not paid by trumps pac was brought in to provide legal advice to taveras, and then spoke to investigators. As my msnbc colleague katie phang emphasizes, it was only after taveras switched lawyers that he agreed to speak with investigators who wanted to know about the conversations he had about the apparent block to delete Security Footage. As the New York Times reports, quote, at trial, Taveras Testimony could be crucial for smiths prosecutors in establishing a conspiracy to try to erase the tapes, and this obstruct the investigation. Closeddoor testimony from taveras is presumably how we know about certain damning conversations from the Superseding Indictment, like this exchange between him and de oliveira, quote, de oliveira told taveras that the boss wanted the server deleted, and quote, de oliveira insisted to taveras that the boss wanted the server deleted, and ask, what are we going to do . And i must ask is this random i. T. Guy the smartest person to ever work for donald trump . Because he seems to have seen the writing on the wall, unlike others. He got a new lawyer, unlike others. Even his donald trump super pac is reportedly spending tens of millions of dollars on legal fees for the ex president and his various associates in trouble with the law. And while we do not know if taveras is actually cooperating, and if so to what extent, as it stands right now, it does not look like he is going to be indicted, despite receiving that Target Letter. Now, there are still some Unanswered Questions here. Taveras is still working at maralago, and we dont know who is paying his current legal fees. But that aside, he may very well be one of the first people in trumps orbit to break the trend and decide, its not worth taking the fall in some form or other, for the donald, like so many bizarrely and done before him. President trumps former National Security adviser Michael Flynn has just pleaded guilty to a charge of lying to the fbi. In washington, d. C. Courtroom today, George Papadopoulos became the first Trump Campaign aide to be sent to jail as part of Robert Muellers russia probe. His former personal attorney, michael cohen, who was sentenced to three years in prison the man who helped get donald trump into the white house now faces almost seven years in prison. The president s longtime friend and former campaign adviser, roger stone, found guilty today of all charges stemming from the russia investigation. Mr. Trumps longtime advisor steve bannon was today sentenced to four months in prison on Misdemeanor Contempt Of Congress charges. Trumps most recent codefendant, carlos de oliveira, should think about those who came before him. Today, he appeared in court for the first time, following his indictment, and soon, he could be adding his name to that growing list of trump allies who went to prison. Unless he decides to be one of the smart ones, like taveras very well might be, or perhaps like Trumps White HouseChief Of Staff mark meadows, who was widely speculated to be cooperating with prosecutors to save his own, and the other jack smith case, the january 6th case, where we can also see an indictment imminently. So, maybe trumps lackeys are finally, finally starting to rise up, maybe, and realize its not worth risking prison time for a man who would not cross the street to save their lives. In fact, and other telling bits of reporting from nbc news today, one close trump era ally reacted to de oliveiras indictment by responding, quote, who the hell is that . Nice. Barbara mcquade is a former u. S. Attorney for the Eastern District of michigan where she once brought significant Seditious Conspiracy charges against a group. Dick gregorie works for the u. S. Attorneys office for the Southern District of florida where he successfully prosecuted some of miamis most highprofile defendants. Both join me now. Barbara, what is your take on this. Do you get the impression that taveras is a cooperating witness at this point . Yes, i do. And, you know, Well Operation is a bit of a turn of art when it comes to criminal law. I think we often think of it as someone who has worked out a plea deal and has agreed to cooperate. It does not appear, to me, that mr. Taveras has criminal exposure, that he did everything right. He rejected the request to delete the server. And it appears he is the source of this information that now gears in this indictment. So, it seems to me that he is a witness and not a defendant here, and is likely the person who will testify at trial about these incidents. Dick, what do you make of the fact that de oliveira in florida today in court, did not enter a plea . And how much do you think prosecutors are hoping to flip someone like de oliveira at some point . I think today was another delay mechanism. It is almost im using to think that he brought a lawyer with him all the way from washington, d. C. But in the Southern District of florida, which is one of the most heavy criminal districts in the united states, a man was unable to find a lawyer within a week. This is just almost a musing. But it is also a kind of sad because mr. De oliveira is in a very difficult position. I would hope one of the first motions that he and nauta would file would be a motion for severance. If you had a real serious attorney, defense attorney, i would assume that they would say, my client is not involved in the hiding of national secrets. They are accused of obstruction of justice, and they shouldnt have to be tried with donald trump. But right now, it doesnt appear that that is the road that they are taking. And, barb, theres some reasonable skepticism that trump but his codefendants dont have the same privilege of being a former prisoner for nauta, for de oliveira, the threat is quite real for them, is it not . It absolutely is. One thing is very interesting, i think all three of these men are facing criminal exposure and years in prison. But what is different about donald trump as a Secret Service protectee, i think hes got a pretty good argument about why his sentence should be served in home confinement, or some other way, other than going to a Penal Institution the way most people do, which is, i think, too objectionable for the Secret Service to have their protectee in that environment. And so, while donald trump may be able to escape incarceration, i dont see the same thing happening for his codefendants. Dick, does donald trump need to be arraigned second time if theres a new Superseding Indictment . Well, the rules say that he must be. They also provide, though, if they file a Written Request to not have to appear in person, the judge may waive the personal appearance. But it still has to be clear in the Written Request that he has received copies of the new charges, the new indictment against him, the Superseding Indictment. And he is aware of the new charges coming against him. So, technically, he should be federal rules, or criminal procedure, require that he be arraigned. However, that can be waived if he filed a request with the court. And to my knowledge, that hasnt happened yet. Barb, just going back to that Superseding Indictment and what we learned at the end of last week, we now know jack smith doesnt just have what he thinks is strong evidence of obstruction of justice, an attempt we dont know if it succeeded or not to delete footage after being subpoenaed. But also, the iran battle plans that were heavily reported on the media, the document that donald trump is alleged to have waved around bedminster, he denied that on fox. He said it wasnt a document, just papers. And now, we believe that the special counsel has that too. Yes, i think so. You dont, the first time around, it did not specify that they had the document. But this time around, it says specifically that donald trump showed that document to a person unauthorized to see it. And it is listed as a substantive count. It is then you count 32 in the Superseding Indictment. I dont think they would do that unless they had a document which they could fix an Exhibit Sticker and introduce into evidence. It appears that since the last time, theyve gotten their hands on that document, or they have clarified which document it is, perhaps by talking with that witness about what she saw in that room. So, that is now part of this case. Its also, i think, it makes the case a bit stronger. I think previously, it could have come in under rule of evidence called 404b, which says you can bring in other bad acts to show a persons m. O. , intent, knowledge, some other things. But sometimes, judges dont ramp that request. He that is part of a substantive charge, it absolutely is coming in to evidence. Dick, last question to you, you help prosecute some of the worst of the worst, cartel bosses, as well as panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega on drug charges back in the 1990s. I would never dare to compare donald trump with noriega. But jack smith is now prosecuting the biggest, you know, the most highprofile defendant anyone can imagine in america, a former president. How do you think jack smith has handled this indictment, this case so far . I think everything hes done so far is as professional, and probably most professional ive ever seen. He has written an indictment, which has so much information, and is so exacting, it has quotations. It has photographs. I dont think ive ever seen an indictment which has been this exacting and this complete. I have to say that you couldnt do much better than hes done. Barb mcquade and dick gregorie, thank you for your analysis. Appreciate it. Coming up earlier this year, ron desantis was tied with donald trump for the republican nomination. So, what happened . The latest on the implosion of diet trump. But, first, you just wanted to find 11,000 more votes, when Georgia Investigators could be the next to indict the former president. The next to indict the former president. Next scene might take a while. For a great low rate, go with the general. I need it cool at night. Next scene might take a while. You trying to ice me out of the bed . Baby, only on game nights. You know you are retired right . Am i . Ya save up to 500 on the new sleep number® smart bed. Plus, 60 month financing on most smart beds. Shop now only at sleep number®. Every business thats why Comcast Business De is launching theal. Mobile made free event. With our business internet, new and existing customers can get one year of unlimited mobile for free. Its our best internet. Powered by The Next Generation 10g network and with 99. 9 reliability. Plus one line of free mobile for an entire year. Its the mobile made free eventhappening now. Get started for just 49. 99 a month. Plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. All i want to do is this. Comcast business, powering possibilities. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Look, brad, i gotta get i have to find 12,000 votes. And i have them, times a lot. So what are we gonna do here, folks . I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, i need 11,000 votes. Give me a break. Give me a break. You remember that piece of sound, right . Donald trumps infamous call urging the georgia Secretary Of State to overturn the election there, and, quote, find him nearly 12,000 votes. Its a call that had anyone else made, had you or i made it, we would be in prison right now. Americans have been waiting for more than two and a half years to see if there will be any accountability for that attempt to steal an election that was caught on tape. Now, accountability may finally be at hand. Earlier this year, Fulton County georgia District Attorney fani willis set an august schedule for her staff, that signaled to many, that is when a Charging Decision would likely be made. Speaking to nbcs atlanta affiliate over the weekend, this week District Attorney willis essentially confirmed that timeline. We made a commitment to the people, most importantly citizens of Fulton County, that we are gonna be making some big decisions, regarding the election of the investigation. And i would do that before september 1st, 2023. And im gonna hold true that commitment. The work is accomplished. The work you want to have here is ready to go. We are ready to go. Joining me now is tamar hallerman, Senior Reporter with the atlanta journalconstitution. Thank you so much for coming on the show tonight. D. A. Willis says her team is ready to go, as we just heard her say. August, of course, begins tomorrow. Do we have any indications, can you give us any more precise ideas on timing . Well, we actually just got a little bit in the last hour or so. George cheety, whos an independent journalist down here in georgia, confirmed that he got a subpoena to come and testify before both of the regular grand juries that are meeting here in august and are expected to hear potential trump related charges, and his subpoena dates says anywhere between august 7th, and august 31st. So, that means we are not expecting potential indictments this week, but we could see it next week, the week after. And potentially even later into august. And, tamar, while we are on that, quickly, what is his role or alleged role in this Georgia Story . George cheety stumbled upon a meeting of alternate republican electors at the state capital here in Georgia In Mid December of 2020. He was there waiting to observe the regular democratic electors who were scheduled to go at noon. But he saw some republicans, and then he walked into a room. He thought, okay, thats interesting. He tried to enter the room. He was recording ons phone. It was booted out and told that it was an educational meeting. And of course, we find out later that that was the meeting of the Republican Trump electors who did end up opening the meeting to the public so people could record. But his testimony could be very crucial, especially since it looks like the d. A. Is still very interested in who organized and participated in this meeting of the electors. A very educational meeting. Tamar, i understand that cameras are allowed in Georgia State courtrooms. So, let me just clarify this if donald trump is arraigned in Fulton County, it will likely be on video. Is that right . Yes, a lot of that depends on the judge who is going to be overseeing the case that day. So, we have to file special paperwork if you want to shoot cameras or recorded audio in a courtroom. So far, we havent encountered any problems with that, under judge mcburney, as weve gone through the investigative part of all of this. Although, we dont know who the judge is going to be should trump or others be indicted in Fulton County. And it all depends on them and what they see. And of course, the Secret Service would be involved in any sort of negotiations, should trump himself be indicted. And of course, they dont want to do anything to put the former president in harms way. So, perhaps, they will make a push to not have this be televised. I feel like if donald trump has a televised arraignment, hes doing a Stephen Colbert pop