Proceeding, and conspiring against the rights of voters. It ties these to the violent attack of trumps voters at the capitol on january 6th. Special counsel jack smith spoke on that after it was filed. It was fueled by lies. Lies by the defendant, targeted at obstructing a Bedrock Function of the u. S. Government, a nations process of collecting, counting, and certifying the results of the president ial election. The men and women of Law Enforcement who defended the u. S. Capital on january 6th, are our heroes. They are patriots, and they are the very best of us. Since the attack on our capitol, the Department Justice has remained committed to ensuring accountability for those criminally responsible for what happened that day. This case has brought consistent with that commitment, and our investigation evander individuals continues. The indictment names trump as the only defendant, but it describes six coconspirators working with him to contest joe bidens win in 2020. Trump, no surprise, has denied all wrongdoing in connection with 2020, and is set to appear in Federal Court in d. C. On thursday. With that, lets bring in our lead off lead off panel at this hour, peter baker, chief White House Correspondent for the new york times, katie benner, both surprised when the Justice Department winner, and msnbc analyst, Glenn Kirschner, ronaldo mary, ottawa so and Harry Lippman joins me here at 30 rock, former u. S. Attorney and former Deputy Assistant attorney general. Glenn kirschner, i turn to you first. I want to share what a former judge, michael lubbock, said earlier tonight about donald trump and these charges. These are as grave as offenses against the United States as a president could commit short of treason. He lost burns, where he gave lies to attack on a United Capital with the intent of disrupting of not preventing all together the counting of electoral votes for the presidency of the United States, which is, in america, a sacred proceeding. He just does not get much graver than that. How powerful is of this indictment . You know it is so powerful it was so necessary because often we talk about how politics will help us change course. How many times have we heard both the bombs out. Lets get rid of the elected officials and put a new batch in their. I have been maintaining for quite a while now that it really is only the rule of law that could save our democracy. I know that sounds hyperbolic, but without Holding Donald trump accountable, criminally accountable, for attempting what was an overthrow of our democracy, he was trying to unlawfully and unconstitutionally retain the power of the presidency. This is not a political problem. This is a rule of law problem. And jack smith, having been appointed only in november, he sort of prodded the rule of law back into wakefulness, and seemed to have been lying dormant for quite some time, and now he has done the one thing that i think our nation needed to really be able to move forward as a democracy. But it is a political problem, harry, because it is important as these charges are, and the preservation of our democracy, if donald trump becomes the next president to the United States, doesnt all of this magically disappear . Yeah, and its not so magical. It will tragically disappear. But theres only one sane way for the rule of law, and i agree with glenn, here for us to be focused on it. He has to ignore. That he is giving his 35 words today and a very long speaking indictment. Hell talk in court. He has to keep his head down, convince 12 people, and just hope that the rest of the country takes care of itself. There is no other sort of sane approach. How important, well, lets go back to the january six hearing. Cassidy hutchinson. How important was her testimony . Because it was sort of, her testimony broke the dam and in many ways brought us here tonight. Cassidy, who was essentially a lowest level staff level staffer and made history. It was pivotal. And it still has salient today. What happened to her, she had a trump lawyer, the trump was paying for. She went in the deposition. He urged her to lie, and then she came out and felt terrible about it, got a new lawyer, told the truth, and that did break the dam, as you say. We are now in a situation in which the trump back spent 20 plus million in the First Six Months on legal fees, including furnishing many of the suspects or witnesses here with their own lawyers. Its sort of been a full employment act for a couple of them in particular. And you have to worry that theres a similar impact here, especially in maralago. Though i know thats not the focus tonight. Peter, the january six hearing, really, the evidence that was gathered, brought us here tonight. We were just talking about it with cassidy. If nancy pelosi had not swapped out jim jordan for liz cheney, would we be here . It wouldve been a very different investigation, no question. The committee as originally conceived, a ten member bipartisan with five republicans five democrats, chose a white democrat who wouldve include jim jordan, very partisan, a little bit of food fight, it wouldve been a partisan battle from The Beginning. And instead what you had was jamess committee was bipartisan committee. Not equal numbered, only to republicans, but there were republicans on there. In which they actually seemed interested in trying to figure out what happened. What were the facts . What was this going to tell them rather than being a fight among themselves it was an inquiry to determine the facts of the situation. Youre right. If you read this 45page indictment and Pay Attention to the hearings last year, youll find a lot that is familiar. Katie talked about this in the last hour. A lot of the facts here that were already uncovered by the january Six Committee. So they lay the groundwork, if you will, for what the Justice Department could then follow. Just determined probably knew a lot, already but could lay down and understand the narrative that jack smith could pick up and put into the indictment. Katie, this indictment lays out the extreme pressure on then Vice President mike pence to go along with the plan. Could we see him on the stand . I think that we will probably see mike pence on the stand. Its clear that he would tell the truth under oath. There are conversations here, private conversations between donald trump and mike pence that are in this indictment. Its clear that he told the truth to two prosecutors in the grand jury. I wouldnt be surprised to see him. What is interesting is that mike pence has responded to this indictment. He has reiterated that what happened on january six was wrong. A lot of the other candidates who are running against donald trump have been unwilling to say this. Rhonda santa said he hasnt even read the indictment. So its going to be industry to see how republicans in general respond to this. Especially as standard barbers or high standing members of the party asked to take the stand. We could see mike pence, mark meadows, other prominent republicans asked to testify about what donald trump was doing in the days after the election. And so this will directly impact the president ial race. Its hard to see how it wouldnt. Renata, we are seeing rightwing media say over and over, this is an indictment against Freedom Of Speech. Can you explain to our audience how Freedom Of Speech works and what exactly it protects . One thing it doesnt protects speech that involves committing a crime. In other words, if all of us conspire together to fix prices, that is an antitrust violation. In fact, theres a lot of case law out there that says that when you are working together to commit a crime thats not protecting the First Amendment. So trump was talking to a lot of people, to jeffrey clark, Rudy Giuliani and john eastman but it was conspiring to prevent the peaceful transfer of power in the United States. Its really remarkable, we feel now under indictment was don trump those were indictments of for him doing things either before or after he left office and they werent core to his role as president. The hush money scheme, that was something that needed to get himself elected, but it wasnt about what he was doing as president. Keeping those documents, trying to destroy evidence of maralago, that was something that but here this is about trump acting as president to corruptly stay in power. I think its so important, and it really has nothing to do with Freedom Of Speech. What a little upgradeds, harry . Again, its not about what trump said. Jack smith is like yap, hes a liar, but its about what he. Did yes, but smith frames in a particular way. This is, remember, were blitzing through, at finding this detail in that. You can be sure these 45 pages were very carefully scrubbed, talked about, i went through many reviews in the department, and he is telling the story and you can tell it in different ways. First of all, he starts out, paragraph one, he lost the election. Lets just forget about that. And then you go through the paragraphs again and again and again, i did all the search fraud, lie, fraud, fraud. In other words, hes framing it. He could frame it in different ways but is a guy who just got up lying, light every day, and exactly, by the way, as renato says lies are not protected by the First Amendment. I effectuated these plans by talking. He didnt bring out his gun, but that doesnt mean hes got First Amendment protection. But i think its a very carefully framed indictment to tell a Story A Falsehood and if i can add one more thing i think the most important part of it is the caption. Stick with. Me usa versus donald trump. It could easily have been donald trump plus six, and i think is jack smith looking for speed. Those six, by the way, theyre in big trouble. Explain this to our audience. How so . Because the delay is really trumps number one defense. This is smith responding in the most vigorous way he can. Seven defendants, seven occasions for delay, for different motions, et cetera. One defendant, smith is bearing down. I think this has now become, in the Pole Position for the first so do you mean, like how walt nauta in the maralago case, i need some time, i can find an attorney, and saying codefendant now same thing, you mean like that . Exactly, except when youre talking jeff clark, and Kenneth Chesebro and john eastman and the others, youll have bigger sort of First Amendment claims and legal challenges. They are all out. It is zeroing in on trump as the defendant, and i think smith in his 26 words, two of them or speedy trial, the others realize, lies, lies. I think this is really ham he had seen the enemy and the enemy is the calendar plus donald trump. He is in the best position to combat it. Mr. Watts, lets zero in on your specialty. The department of justice has charged, within 1000 defendants, in the capitol riot. What do you make of how jack smith is linking the insurrection to the case against trump . Yeah, its pretty clear. I just have to say, stephanie, what is remarkable when you read this from an investigative perspective, is there is no wiretaps, no undercovers, no undercover investigation, its all there. Theyre just going in interviewing witnesses. Some people cooperate, thats where the evidence is and thats where they traced to. The second part, this really speaks to what we might see going forward. There are worries about extremism keep kicking up again. Probably not. When you look at, this was the way through but every lie that was spoken, this really ties into many trials that are occurring right now for all of these defendants that were taken to prison, essentially, for january 6th. Some have pleaded, some have mixed results, but i think in the end, when you look at this, it does come down to the entire conspiracy was a falsehood. And everybody who showed up that they believe this falsehood because the president , who is being charged, was the only continue to speak it. Its gonna have a Ripple Effect through many convictions around the country. So i didnt think it was very important that they focused in this indictment very narrowly, that they waited out just in terms of a timeline. Very specifically. And everything in here, i would say, all the way up to 75 , when you get to the 30s, page 30s, we already knew all the stuff. It was either through the january Six Committee or we had already heard it out in the news. I think the only parts that are coming particularly remarkable or mark meadows and mike pence, both in terms of the testimony that is coming out through here. It seems very clear that they are cooperating. Theyre providing evidence, and theyre standing up for democracy. So its really remarkable, when we looked at all the indictments over the years or when we go through a mass shooter or terrorism case or some sort of conspiracy, this is not that. Theres no one to cover, no wiretaps, no advanced search and seizure going on. Its remarkable. No indictment just, the fbi when it interviewed people, they gave recollections of what happens and you see that trying Game Triangulated through the document. Today is a win for all those people that said yeah, we are in the january six hearing, nothing came of, it lets move on. What came of . It charges. Tonight. Glenn, lets go back to what harry was talking about a moment ago. Not charging the coconspirators is one of jacques myths ways to get this thing on track and moving with speed. Are there any other levers, though, that you see in these charges, the don trump could pull to try to delay this case . Oh, he will pull levers. He will pull shenanigans. Hell pull stuff out of a hat. He will pull anything he can pull. He will encourage his lawyers. They will make frivolous claim after frivolous claim. And they will be desperate to try to delay this thing. I dont think jack smith will stand for it. He will hold their feet to the fire. And i know judge tanya chutkan, who i tried murder cases against back in the day, which was a public defender in d. C. , and i was assistant u. S. Attorney trying murder cases, i think the world of her. I followed her career. Ive been in her courtroom is a federal judge observing her. But most importantly, when i was trying cases against her, she was smart. She was tactically shrewd. She was tough. She was aggressive. But she was entirely honorable and ethical, not to mention fearless. I think donald trump has met his match in a judge, and then some. She was also quite tough on those rioters that sat before her in court. She was the one who said, president s are not kings. 100 percent. The other reason why the caption is the most important. Youre all about his caption tonight. Im all about the caption. Those initial stylus. There are about 14 judges on that court. Two or three of them might have been in the aileen cannon category, made us nervous, she is absolutely a no nonsense judge. But also a fair one, as glands, as an intelligent one. And importantly, above her now as a court of appeals that is accustomed to trump Delay Strategies and have shown the propensity to move through it quickly. So glen is right. He will try everything possible, especially executive privilege claims, but the hand has been dealt in the way that maximizes the chances of getting through it all and having a trial actually finish before november, 2024. We were concerned about extremist violence in new york after the Stormy Daniels hush money arraignment. Same thing, we had concerns in miami. They did not play out. It was good for our safety. Glenn, how clint, how concerned are you about extremists in this latest latest indictment . Less, all for a few reasons. First, if the former president doesnt point people to a specific location, you just arent gonna see people move there. We did see some protests down in florida, but he actually sort of called for it to be peaceful. I think probably the lesson hes been learned, thats why we see this trial right now. The second part is, the reach of the former president in social media and other media tapes is not that. And the third one is how many hundreds of not thousands of people were burned on january 1st for the sixth, former president knew the diamond was false from the start. Everyone told on. That was going to fall for it again . I think people may show up. You might see supporters rally in certain ways. But im not seeing the kind of thing that you wouldve seen in 2020, the proud boys, the oath keepers. They have been indicted. Theyve been charged. There isnt that same coalescing right now. It doesnt mean you wont have what we would have a soul casting terrorism supporter which auburn maybe commit violence. But there has to be a time in place to do that. We have not seen yet. Something to watch for. But also, i think, people can be fooled once. The second time the story is a bit different. I think you see that in the indictment today. Clint, i have to go to commercial, but has the support that trump is had from the proud boys in the oath keepers, has any let support waned while so many of them are sitting in jail . I think it has waned and changed. Waned in the sense that how long can you be excited about the same sort of narratives being spun out over and over again from 2015 till today . Its the same record that keeps getting played. Really hard to get exciting about. The second thing is, some Lessons Learned for a lot of those supporters, especially as they watch what happens to the proud boys in the oath keepers. And in the ranks of a lot of Extremist Groups are what we would call potential Extremist Groups, we saw fractures in those groups, where people s