Their case for them. New tension in Fulton County as Da Fani Willis Weighings the timing of a possible fourth donald trump against donald trump. Take a look at this House Collapsing into a river in alaska. Its just one result of recordbreaking b glacial flooding in juneau. The floodwaters forcing residents to flee and officials to declare a state of emergency. Thats one example of the Severe Weather hammering the country today. Well start with Donald Trumps legal team on the clock. They have just a few more hours to respond to the dojs request to restrict what the former president can publicly disclose about evidence. Special counsel jack smith made the request after trump wrote on social media, quote, if you go after me, im coming after you. Here is what trump attorney alina habba had to say about the request for the protective order. This is jack smith coming out as the victim here, saying its more him being afraid. The protective order in terms of witness testimony, exhibits, those arent necessarily things weve ever disagreed to. I want to be clear that doesnt seem to be an issue for my client. What seems to be an issue is jack smith isnt liking the discomfort of the attention from what he brought. I want to bring in harry litman, Constitutional Law Professor At Yums and Tara SetmayerSenior Adviser for the lincoln project. We know typically jum has his Defense Lawyers try the case in the court of Public Opinion, on tv. Is this a defense well see in the courtroom as well. 100 . Understand what this protective order is about. Theyre saying we want to give you all the information youre entitled to now and more, but its for a special purpose, so you can prepare your case. Its not so you can take it around the country and try to use it for campaign purposes. You can have it all now just as we did in maralago, and the resistance is because hes refusing to say he wont do just what hes not permitted to do with it, for example, what he did in the last couple days with pence, trying to call him out and focus on him or that really crazed, unsettled, allcaps tweet from social media. This is for him to have to prepare his case, not to try to vilify doj in the public campaign. Trump argued today this order would infringe on his right to free speech here. What do you make of that . What do you make of this fight . Does it tell us something about the legal battles to come . I think hes going to try to frame everything in terms of free speech. You know, smith has been very craftsmanlike in putting together the indictment. It has nothing to do with free speech. Hes charged with making unlawful agreements, agreements to do unlawful things. Thats a conspiracy. You achieve them with words just as if i say to you lets rob a bank, it would be with words. Its a deeply muddled idea that its somehow about free speech. I think youll see that theme even if it doesnt hunt specifically, track the law. That theme will be pounded again and again including on the campaign trail. Tara, in the court of Public Opinion, if this is a sign of things to come, do you get a sense that democrats and moderates need to be more vocal and sort of play the same game here that republicans are doing on the airwaves . Or do you think just stay out of it and let them do it . They absolutely have to push back with the facts and the truth. Right now the Republican Party has accepted a false bargain of being completely complicit in the rants of an unhinged man who is attacking the foundations of our Law And Order in this country. You cant sit back and respond in silence. Otherwise the loudest voices in the room will get the most attention. Unfortunately these are people who believe in Conspiracy Theories and lies. This is a purposeful tactic. Donald trump knows this. His only defense is in a court of Public Opinion, not a court of law. Hes been unsuccessful with these attempts in a court of law in the past. He was unsuccessful with his attempts to claim Election Fraud across the country, 60plus cases defeated. You saw what Rudy Giuliani did in the court of Public Opinion in 2020, trying to put out falsehoods. He didnt say those things in court because there are consequences to that in a court of law. This absolutely needs to be a fullon offense of the truth here by surrogates, nothing the president of the United States should get involved, but he has plenty of surrogates, plenty of law scholars like harry litman and others who are out here speaking the truth, educating the American People. Donald trump is counting on the fact that the American People arent educated in what the Court System Works and what the law says. So far hes been successful with the rart. Thats not the entire american populous or the voters in this country. They need to be informed about the truth. Harry, trumps attorney john lauro was on all the major sunday shows yesterday. The crux of his argument seems to be that trump believed the election was fraudulent and he had won and he had reason to believe that because of what his lawyers were telling him or what he was hearing. Here is what of that. The defense is quite simple, donald trump, President Trump believed in his heart of hearts he had won that election. As any american sint had a right to speak out under the First Amendment. Mr. Pence, his Vice President , agreed with him there were anomalies and discrepancies in the election process, and mr. Trump had every right to petition government and enforce his First Amendment rights. Thats why this indictment is an attack on the First Amendment. The government, the Biden Administration would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump did not believe he won the election. They will never be able to do that. Thats why this prosecution is so ill conceived. They will never be able to do that. Harry, he said he believed it in his heart of hearts. Time after time in this indictment we see instances in which jack smith writes about times that trump was told he lost, or even instances where he admitted he lost. Does the prosecution have to go a step further and prove his frame of mind . How do they go about doing that . No, and they dont even have to go that far. By the way, lindsey, very good of you to add, the indictment includes not just everybody in the radio, all the grownups in the room telling him he lost, but also his acknowledgment that he had. It wouldnt matter. This is such a deeply muddled and kind of lousy argument to be made in the public sphere. If he believed he won, thats fine. What he shouldnt be able to do is unlawful things like substitute false electors or impede official proceedings. Those things are the unlawful things. He agreed to do those. That means conspiracy. It has nothing to do with whats in has heart. Moreover, the evidence is quite strong that he knew he lost. My colleague dasha burns talked with ron desantis and talked about strategy for this upcoming election. Lets listen. If the election is a referendum on joe bidens policies and the failures that weve seen, and were presenting a positive vision for the future, we will win the presidency and have a chance to turn the country around. If, on the other hand, the election is not about january 20th, 2025, but january 6, 2021, or what document was left by the toilet at maralago, if its a referendum on that, were going to lose. It sort of feels, tara, theres a just lets move on. Is that a sense you get as well . Is that a losing strategy because for so many voters it is more it is about so much more. If this becomes a referendum on the 2020 election or january 6th, absolutely republicans lose. Democrats are saying, sure, you want to relitigate the past . Lets do it. Democrats need to embrace President Bidens record. He has a positive economic record to run on. He cleaned up the mess that donald trump left in his wake, and its important for them to embrace this and not shy away from it. Do not let the republicans coopt the message here. They need to feel comfortable going on offense. Republicans will lie and steal and cheat and say whatever they want in order to arouse certain feelings of fear, whether its based in truth or not. If ron desantis hes actually right about that. But thats not the message that hes really put out from the very beginning. Hes afraid to say trumps name. Most of the republican primary candidates afraid to take trump on directly about this, and they shouldnt be. Either the party believes in Law And Order and the constitution or they dont, or they buy to the consult of personality that is trump that has destroyed the party and could destroy our democracy if he wins again. They need to make that decision. So far theyve shown they dont have the backbone to do it. Before we let both of you go, harry, one of the most fascinating aspects is that members of trumps inner circle may end up being witnesses for the prosecution. John lauro suggested even if trump pressured pence, it would be a technical Violation Of The Constitution, not a crime. He then said this. I cannot wait, i cannot wait until i have the opportunity to crossexamine mr. Pence, because what he will do is completely eliminate any doubt that mr. Trump, President Trump firmly believed that the Election Irregularities Led to inappropriate results. What do you make of that, that he cant wait to crossexamine mike pence and also a technical Violation Of The Constitution is not a violation of a criminal statute . Lets take the second which is kind of stunning. I dont know what technical violation means, but its a Violation Of The Constitution to substitute electors that are not the duly elected one. Its a Violation Of The Constitution and the laws of the United States to try to put off proceedings its not trump to pence, although its kind of ironic, he did everything but put a gun to pences head and really insight people to put him on the gallows. Leaving that aside, what he did was agree to try to delay the proceedings. And also what he did was to try to actually change the Phony Electors. Thats just against the law six ways to sunday. By the way, on his bravado, pence, because he is a sort of reluctant to go too strong against his former boss will be an effective witness. It will be clear hes telling the truth. He took contemporaneous notes, one of the few new details in this indictment. Hes going to really kill them especially with some of the early conversations. No way around it. Tara setmayer, thank you. Harry will be back with us after the break. Earlier today a judge dismissed Donald Trumps attempt to countersue e. Jean carroll for defamation after the author won a 15 million suit against him in may. After carroll said, oh, yes, he did, when he was asked about the jurys finding that trump had not raped her but was liable for sexual assault. The judge ruled that, quote, her statement was substantially true and trump failed to show malice. Security preparations under way in Fulton County, georgia, as District Attorney fani willis prepares a fourth possible indictment for donald trump. What Law Enforcement learned from earlier trump indictments in manhattan and miami when were back in 60 seconds. Ts in manhattan and miami when were back in 60 seconds try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for Muscle Health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. Boost® high protein. Now available in cinnabon® bakeryinspired flavor. Learn more at boost. Com tv have fun, sis cant stop adding stuff to your cart . Get the Bank Of America customized cash rewards card, choose the Online Shopping category and earn 3 cash back. Any day now former President Trump could be hit with a possible fourth indictment tied to Election Interference in georgia. With orange barricades already up in the city of atlanta, the Sheriffs Department is upping security today, closing the streets surrounding the Fulton County courthouse ahead of possible charges in the case. I want to bring in nbcs Blayne Alexander from outside the courthouse, and also back with us, harry litman. Blayne, the sheriff and fani willis have both seen an increase in threats. What can you tell us about the increase in security that youre seeing . Reporter we know this is something that was fully expected, lindsey, the fact theyve upped their security today, we could likely see more before we see an announcement of Charging Decisions here. Thats not at all unexpected. As you mentioned, both the d. A. And the sheriff said they received a number of threats, dozens of threats over the past few months. Weve even obtained some of the letters that fani willis says shes received, some including racist remarks. Theyre not surprised about that either. We know as we get closer to seeing any decisions, we will likely see the security increase. As it stands right now, no cars are allowed to drive down this street. General traffic has been shut off in front of the courthouse, there are barricades on both sides, and also barricades on both sides of the courthouse to at least slow the flow of traffic coming in and out. I think as were getting closer we know were right now in the middle of a period that fani willis, the District Attorney, has outlined as a waiting period, or at least strong indicated this is the time when well hear Charging Indictments from her. We know shes preparing to present her case before a grand jury. We know subpoenas have gone out for witnesses to testify before that grand jury. What we dont know is when shes actually going to present the case. Weve been talking with some of the people who have been subpoenaed, they havent received the 48hour notice. Thats crucial because that will give us a Closer Pinpoint on what we can expect fani willis to go before the grand jury. That hasnt happened yet. So possibly the end of this week or next week. Blayne, thank you so much for the latest on your reporting on the ground. Harry, u want to play a little more of that interview with trumps attorney john lauro about that infamous phone call in georgia. That wasnt a threat at all. What he was asking for is for raffensperger to get to the truth. He believed there were in excess of 10,000 votes that were counted illegally. What he was asking for is the Secretary Of State to act appropriately and find these votes that were counted illegally. Find. Hold on one second. That wednesday an aspirational ask. Once again, thats core political speech. Harry, in the indictment, though, you see moment after moment of the former president putting pressure on mike pence to reject legitimate votes for biden in 2020. In a tweet saying do it, mike. In a phone call the indictment says he again pressured pence. And in a quote, we are demanding of Vice President pence. Is are prosecutors looking to show this is more of a directive than an aspirational ask . The short answer is no. With raffensperger he basically threatens him as the chief Law Enforcement officer in the federal system with jail. Mike pence is not the victim of the crime that trump was charged with. Raffensperger is not the victim of the crime. The victims are the Et Voers Of Georgia or maybe the members of congress. The crime again is trying to delay the proceedings past the date and time, which he actually succeeded in doing, or giving Phony Electors names. Theres nothing lauro says, thats trying to put lipstick on a pig. Theres no way of calling that political speech. Thats just an effort to do unlawful things. The whole thing is really a kind of misdirection. Its interesting and a little surprising hes trying it so much in the press. I guess thats consistent with trumps overall strategy. His really only hope here is to win the election and the call the case off. Politico points out that the potential weakness of the Fulton County case is that essentially a local prosecutor charging a former president with Election Interference would be unprecedented in american history. Do you see this as a challenge to overcome . I think there will be a lot of challenges in this one in particular. For one, we know from the sort of 15minute tour of fame of the former foreperson, going to charge 12, 15 people, some national figures, some local georgia figures. Theres a chance shell use rico which is a hard thing to say to the jury. There are difficult issues because in contrast to th