Felt like, okay, im going to read the article. But do i really have to . Im just gonna find out the name of the rich guy who paid for him. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse is gonna join us with his reactions to the latest turn in the road, so to speak, for Clarence Thomas. The Supreme Court ethics thing, i feel like its a banking your head against the wall, because the more on planetary and consequential the ethical like, literally, financial, ethical Conflict Of Interest issues are exposed, just the clear it gets they dont feel they need to answer anybody, they dont feel constrained by any rules, no matter what you expose, theyre never gonna do anything about it. I feel like Sheldon Whitehouse is the one member of the u. S. Senator was consistent consistently optimistic that something can and should be done. So, im glad youve got him. I will ask him how his head feels. [laughter] very good. Thank you, rachel. Thank you. Well, weve had a flurry of motions filed tonight by Donald Trumps current Defense Lawyers and by special Prosecutor Jack Smith in the newest criminal prosecution of donald trump in washington, d. C. And we have a lot of new Tv Statements from Donald TrumpsCriminal Defense Lawyer john lauro, who has declined our Standing Invitation to appear on this program. But he decided to do several political chat shows this weekend. Our legal team of andrew weissmann, neal katyal and harry litman are here to see if they can do what i couldnt do, which is find anything in what john lauro on television, that sounds like it could be an effective Legal Defense in the courtroom against the charges that special Prosecutor Jack Smith has brought against donald trump for Conspiracy To Defraud the United States, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of an attempt to obstruct an official proceeding. Before we get to the video of john lauros weekend tv lawyering, the break Breaking News of the night is the exchange in Federal Court in washington, d. C. Tonight where special Prosecutor Jack Smith filing his Response Motion tonight, a few hours after trumps Criminal Defense Lawyer john lauro met the five pm deadline for his teams legal filing. The argument in these motions is about what evidence in the case can donald trump and his Defense Lawyers make public. Special Prosecutor Jack Smith is asking for a protective order on basically all the evidence that the prosecution hands over to the defense in the discovery process. And the Trump Defense is asking the judge to, quote, shield only generally sensitive materials from public view. Trump defense teams response acknowledges that Grand Jury Testimony would have to remain secret. And then, makes suggested changes to jack smiths proposed protective order that might seem like small changes. Here is an example of the changes, the way they look on paper. John lauro and his team, recommending to the judge, their changes are in red. And as you can see, most of what jack smith is asking for there john lauro, i actually agrees with, mostly. Jack smiths response says that the changes that john lauro wants to make in the protective order are, quote, designed to allow him to try this case in the media rather than in the courtroom, to emphasize that point, jack smith notes, quote, on sunday august six, Defense Council appeared on five Television Programs and discussed this case in detail. Jack smith John Lauro Statements On Television at length showing how eager he is to potentially make the prosecutions evidence and the case public. Jack smith says such conduct has the potential to unnecessarily inflame Public Opinion short of all relevant facts, intimidate witnesses, pollute the jury pool. In his motion to the judge about releasing evidence, Donald Trumps attorneys foolishly gave the judge a Classic Trumpian example of how donald trump and john lauro are willing to grotesquely manipulate evidence and the language spoken by people in this case. John lauro said in writing to the judge, quote, President Biden promised from the outset that his administration would ensure President Trump does not become the next president again. That was one of the juvenile and untrue ways in his filing, that john lauro was attempting to identify President Biden as the real prosecutor in this case, when in fact President Biden has had nothing to do with the case. John lauro insulted the intelligence of the judge in the case, in his attempt to push the lie that President Biden is the real prosecutor of this case. John lauro deliberately and offensively, to the judge, left out the words, if he does run. That is what President Biden actually said. If he does run, President Biden will make sure that donald trump does not become the next president. If someone runs, the way you prevent them from becoming president s you beat them in the election. Here is the full context of the Joe Biden Quote that John Lauro Mischaracterized willfully to the judge. It came at a Press Conference in response to a question about g7 countries expressing concern about american democracy. The entire genesis of that g7 conversation was tied to your predecessor, who is about to launch another campaign. So, how do you reassure them if that is the reason for the questioning, that the former president will not return, that his Political Movement is still very strong, and will not again take power in the United States. [laughter] well, we just have to demonstrate that he will not take power by if he does run by making sure he, under the illegitimate efforts of our constitution, does not become the next president again. If he does run, judges do not like being lied to by lawyers who deliberately leave words out of quotes and a deliberate attempt to mischaracterize evidence or grotesquely distort quotations, to fuel illegitimate legal arguments. In his brief, john lauro has given the judge a perfect example of what jack smith accuses john lauro and donald trump of not to do with the prosecutions evidence in this case. We will get to the weekend video of john lauro in a moment. But we begin with three expert readings of the motions filed in this case tonight. Leading our discussion tonight is andrew weissmann, former fbi General Counsel and former chief of the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of new york. Hes a professor and practice at Nyu Law School and msnbc legal analyst. Also with us neal katyal, former acting u. S. Solicitor general and host of the Podcast Courtside with neal katyal. And harry litman is joining us. Hes a former u. S. Attorney, former Deputy Assistant attorney general. Hes a Senior Legal Affairs columnist for the los angeles times. And, andrew, you are reading of the dueling motions tonight . Well, i think a lot of viewers might be asking, what is all the fuss about . Why is this such a big deal . Why, for instance, am i really upset at what is happening here . And i think that what this is about is the government is trying to protect the integrity of the judicial process. And what i mean by that is that they do not want to see, not just that this case should not be tried in the press, that you should not have intimidation and retaliation against witnesses. Mike pence is obviously one, that you have the former president having issued statements that he would go after people who go after him. And in the filing that was made by john lauro and todd blanche, they say that is protected political speech. There is no sense of shame. They try and say it wasnt about a threat or retaliation. It is a horrifying example of whats to come. And this is the government trying to have a strict protective order to protect the judicial system. This is something hes gonna try the case in the press, and in order to not lose in the court, they need to take these extra judicial steps of threatening people. And imagine a more junior person, people like cassidy hutchinson, seeing whats going on, think of court officers, jurors, families of witnesses, Law Enforcement officers, judges and their families, let alone the prosecutors and their families. This is a way to say that is not what discovery is for. Discovery is not to give you information to try to attack those people. This is a rule of law country. And that is the reason for this back and forth that you saw over the weekend and what is at stake here. Neal katyal, so, accompanying this filing outside of the courtroom, donald trump has attacked the judge in the case, as he apparently always does, if its a judge that he has not appointed. He is attacking jack smith repeatedly. And you see in the filing john lauro doing to joe bidens words exactly what jack smith predicts they will do with the evidence in this case if they get to release it publicly, which will take five words out of a 15 word line that some witnesses said completely distorted and put it out there and try to sell it for the public. And then, jack smiths terms, among other things, pollute the jury pool. Yes, first of all, lawrence, im a little shocked to be saying this. But i actually agree in a way with donald trump. Judge chutkan is a jack smith dream judge. She is a judge with integrity. We all know that nothing scares donald trump more than a judge who is actually gonna uphold the rule of law. And i think you are exactly right when you talked about that biden quote that is in the filing today, which is wrong on multiple levels. The most obvious way in which its wrong is that joe biden is not the prosecutor in this case. Indeed, he has nothing to do with it. Jack smith is a career prosecutor, independent of the political chain of the Justice Department. He is operating as special counsel, and the rules i know, because i wrote them when i was a Young Justice of the department stat, which gives him independents. Biden has nothing to do with the prosecution whatsoever. The other thing about it, that quote, you know, the original context is not just the language if trump runs, but also joe biden says he would only do this with, quote, legitimate efforts within our constitution. And so, that is not the kind of donald trump, you know, who or lock up your opponent, all this stuff that trump is famous for. Its legitimately operating within the constitution. Contrast joe bidens behavior as president with Donald Trumps behavior, just within the 24 hours after he was indicted last week, the judge warned him in the arraignment, dont intimidate any witnesses. And as andrew says, what does he do . He goes in and intimidate witnesses. So i am 100 behind jack smith on this. I think this is tremendously despicable behavior on the part of any defendant. And i sure hope that judge chutkan reigns it in this weekend in the hearing. Harry litman, the question of how far apart are these two sides over this question of a protective order, because of a trump team is saying, yes, there should be a protective order. It doesnt have to be as expansive as the governments protective order. It should be somewhat narrower. Jack smith came back criticizing the changes that the trump team wanted to make. But when you look at it, how big is the difference between these two positions, and where do you expect the judge to come down . As a practical matter, the difference is modest. But as a philosophical matter, it is enormous. And it is for the reasons andrew says. We go to great care and expanse to have a Trial Process that is fair, under certain rules, the way evidence is used, the way witnesses come in, the way jurors are hopefully impartial at the beginning, and the mindset that trump and lauro are advocating for openly is exactly whether its in small measure or large measure, to be able to pick and choose. And thats the only possible reason, to be able to try the case and the press, i. E. Pollute the jury pool, or to call out individual witnesses, as he did to pence, i. E. In intimidating witnesses. Those are the two big lookout for judge chutkan. Also to your point, that little change of four words, trump does that a times before breakfast, and we let it go. Judges will not like it. So, my expectation is that she has agreed to hold a hearing on friday. And that way, she is being indulgent to trump, fine, okay, we will hear you out. And i think she will he may not be there, i think she will explore i8 lauro for certain, and begin to draw a line and make clear. They broke some of the road they had before trump is eventually done with very, very harshly. I dont expect her to spend the baby on this one. Lets get a look at donald trump Criminal Defense Lawyer making his television rounds this weekend. President trump and his advisers didnt just ask me to pause, they asked me to reject votes, we turn votes, essentially to overturn the election. What is your response . Mike pence would be one of our best witnesses at trial. Based on what Vice President pence was saying, the government will never be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump had corrupt or criminal intent. And thats what this case is about mike pence said this week is that President Trump, what he did was wrong. And he knew it was wrong, and he was pressing him to do something that was wrong. It was also pretty clear, he never said it was criminal. He said it was wrong, never said it was criminal. Andrew weissmann, didnt john lauro win that round . No. But let me just say one thing about Defense Lawyers. So, you know, when you know that there is a witness who is very bad, who is for you, on your side, who is going to take the stand, you have to do something. And so, since he is trying the case in the press, theres Nothing Better than to say, oh, no, we welcome that person. I mean, privately, that is what they are really saying, of course, we dont love that person. But the fact, this is a common practice, because you have no alternative. That person is going to take the stand. The other is a Sleight Of Hand. You know, because he is a lawyer, you know neal, harry and i are lawyers. So we have to understand, witnesses dont say that was criminal. Thats a decision for a judge to give jury infractions, and for the jury to find, based on those instructions. A witness doesnt get to say i am telling you that was criminal, that is what the jury is going to do with the end of his case. So, again, it is Sleight Of Hand to say she, they witnessed, can be very good because theyre not saying its criminal. But i think lets get real. Its the Vice President of the United States saying i was being told to do something and asked to do something that was unconstitutional. And lets just remember, this is not john lauro set a technical violation. It is overthrowing the will of the people. This is one where i mean, this is so childish when you step back. I mean, again, it is just not a serious discussion when you think about, even to stretch slightly beneath the surface here. Okay, on sunday, john lauro changed his story from the one he told on Television Last week. Heres what john lauro said last week. Professor eastman laid out a series of options that were discussed with Vice President pence. Vice president pence disagreed on certain issues, but ultimately what President Trump said, lets go with option d. Lets just halt. Lets just bought the voting around the State Legislatures to take one last look and make a determination as to whether or not the elections or handled fairly. Now, that appears to be John Lauro OfferingDonald Trumps admission that he did do exactly what the indictment says that he did in asking for a socalled pause in the counting of the electoral votes. And Congress Donald trump actually achieve through the violent attack on the capitol, and trump going with coconspirators, desperately calling and emailing senators, including rudy giuli