Clarence thomas by his wealthy rightwing benefactors. But we begin tonight with a pop quiz. Where did president Abraham Lincoln go to law school . The answer may surprise you. And the answer is nowhere. That is correct. He was a selftaught lawyer. And yet, his judgment that seceding from the union was unconstitutional shaped the country we live in today, more than almost any other action by a u. S. President. Lincoln also had a big influence on the practice of law, Writing Notes for a law lecture in around 1850 that laid out guidelines for being a good lawyer. Such as being among other things diligent, moral, a good businessman, and above all, honest. Above all, honest. Qualities the Illinois StateBar Association says are what defines the term lincoln lawyer. The more you know. Of course, if you want to be a lawyer today, it generally requires going to law school. Only a handful of states allowia to do so without a law degree. But just because someone earns a degree doesnt necessarily mean theyre going to be a good lawyer. Ron desantis is a Harvard Law School trained lawyer, does he seem super sharp to you . There are frankly stunning examples in todays headlines that show we in the u. S. Are facing a crisis of lawyering. Case in point, the alleged Co Conspirators in Donald Trumps latest indictment in his efforts to try to overturn the 2020 election. All of those we have identified are lawyers. All of them. Even the Sixth Coconspirator who was only referred to as a political consultant in the indictment, is identified by the New York Times as likely being trump adviser boris epshteyn. Who is also a lawyer. But it is kenneth chesebro, who really epitomizes the crisis were facing today. He was a researcher for one of the greatest legal minds of the modern era, Harvard Law Schools laurence tribe. He worked for him back in 2000, when tribe was an attorney for al gore, arguing in the infamous bush v. Gore debacle. Now, more than 20 years later, we have learned how Chesebro Dishonestly represented that very research to create a legal pretext for trump to subvert democracy, what we know as the fake elector scheme. The New York Times obtained a copy of a previously unknown memo he wrote that was the genesis of the scheme. Nbc news has not been able to independently verify the memo, but in it, chesebro claimed it was a controversial strategy that likely would get rejected if brought before the Supreme Court. He added while it could ultimately get thrown out, airing it out publicly would, quote, buy the Trump Campaign more time to challenge the election. As it relates to trumps latest indictment, there were lawyers on both sides of the argument about whether or not you can set aside real electors for ones chosen by the losing candidate. It sounds absurd, right . We know there were lawyers from the trump white house, doj, and various states saying you cant do that. Then there were a slew of lawyers all claiming the exact opposite. Men a of whom are now facing or have already faced disbarment. And we all know who trump decided to listen to. Lawyers also played a conspicuous role in the other federal case trump is facing, involving classified documents. Trump tried to corrupt his own lawyers. His lawyers were told by federal authorities to search for the classified documents so they could be returned to federal custody. But trump tried to fool his lawyers by having lowlevel maralago staffers move the boxes around so the lawyers couldnt do the job they were tasked to do, even though the lawyers had to sign an attestation certifying that all the documents had been returned. Signatures that could put them at risk of prosecution if the information turned out to be false. And even after they found some classified documents, one of the lawyers claims trump wanted him to pluck out any really incriminating ones before handing them over to the fbi. Trumps legal team as well as those staffers who are now his codefendants, walt nauta and Carlos De Oliveira were back in a florida courtroom today to be arraigned on additional charges from the superseding indictment. Again, de oliveira came without local counsel, so for the second time, his arraignment was delayed. Its been delayed another week. These two cases and the role that lawyers play in them leave us with an overriding question of whether we can trust lawyers to interpret the law as its written. Or whether they can simply get away with their own interpretation that takes them outside of the law, because if we cant trust the lawyers we have a system that cant function. Their interpretation of the law matters. And this week, the american Bar Association launched a Task Force Led by former Homeland Security secretary jeh johnson and michaelluding who you might remember from the January 6th Hearings whose focus will be to bolster public trust in our elections and remind americans their vote matters. According to luttig, it will address the obligations of lawyers under the constitution and the rule of law, and all of this also matters because trump has come up with a twopart strategy to try to stay out of prison. Theres his legal strategy with his emerging defense is to throw his lawyers under the bus and blame them, hey, they told me i could do it, while politically, his strategy has been to attack all the prosecutors and judges involved in the cases. Jack smith, hes like hes like a deranged individual. And i think were doing very well with that guy, but he is a sick puppy. They say theres a young woman, a young racist in atlanta. A racist. And they say, i guess, they say that she was after a certain gang, and she ended up having an affair with the head of the gang or a gang member. And this is a person that wants to indict me. Shes got a lot of problems but she wants to indict me to try to run for some other office. Joining me now is katie phang, attorney and host of the kate fank show, and Charles Coleman jr. , msnbc legal analyst and host of the Charles Coleman podcast. Katie, you were in court today. And one of the things about lawyers is you actually need a local one in order to be arraigned in the state of florida. Does mr. De oliveira have a local lawyer yet . As we sit here and have this conversation, the answer is no. So you know, de oliveira took a page out of the walt nauta playbook today. Walt nauta, as we know, had his Arraignment Reset on two occasions for him to secure local counsel. There was a guy who showed up today. Hes a Criminal Defense Lawyer out of west palm beach. He represented to the court that they were this close to getting it done and that probably tomorrow he would be able to file a notice of appearance. However, despite the Magistrate Judge from a week and some change ago saying show up and have local counsel today for your arraignment, no local counsel was there. And to your point, you know, joy, when i practiced law for more than 20something years in the courtrooms that i was in and ill specifically focus on miamidade county, there was a saying on the wall behind where the judge sat. And it said, we who labor here only seek the truth. It didnt say we who labor here only seek Donald Trumps truth. It didnt say we who labor here only seek the truth when its convenient and it fits the narrative that i want. It is a Black And White application of the black letter of the law, thats the reason we call it that, as we know. Today, what i saw happen with todd blanch and chris chis that disgusted me is they kept on referring to their client as president trump. Hes not the president. And they do it again and again in the filings. That is the kind of stuff that makes our profession as lawyers look bad. That is the disingenuous move you make as a lawyer that is a problem with our profession. Hes not the president. Hes the former president. And even then, today, the Magistrate Judge didnt take the bait. She said mr. Trump. And so its just one small example, and people may think its superficial, but an example of how dishonest the profession can be when youre just trying to service a client. Right, and charles, the thing about, lawyers have had various reputations in the country. Most of our politicians i dont think people realize, are lawyers. Most elected officials are actually lawyers, they were prosecutors first like you both were. Theres the Ambulance Chaser sort of theme of lawyers, but then theres like when youre in trouble, who do you call . Not The Ghost Busters but a lawyer. In this case, the fact you have lawyers all around both of these cases, in the maralago case, you have lawyers who refuse to commit felonies for donald trump, right . They were refusing to do his dirty work for him, and so theyre potential witnesses against their former client. Its just a weird thing. But the fact that donald trump tried to pull lawyers into his scheme and the fact that in the other case in d. C. , they made up the scheme, it does feel like a lawyer crisis. Well, joy, what we can surmise from what were seeing here is that the law is as powerful and prolific a weapon as any other that can be wielded but it should be reserved for those who appreciate the severity of its consequences. What i mean by that in plain speak is, this isnt for everybody. This is not something that everybody should be doing because everyone cannot appreciate that we are all agents of democracy and democratic processes. What i mean by that, as a lawyer, you are an extension of the court. You are an extension of those institutions which form the bedrock of american democracy. And if you are not willing to take that responsibility and that alliance as seriously as it sounds, then you should not be a part of this profession. It is very clear and very telling that donald trump understood the power of the law, which is why he continued to surround himself over and over and over again with lawyers who were willing to approach that line, in some cases cross it, in some cases bend it, but at the end of the day, what were talking about are a number of people who exist in a relatively selfregulated space, which is also important to understand about the bar, who were willing to step outside of that space from an ethical standpoint in twhat gives as katie already alluded to, all of us a bad name. I mean, and the thing about donald trump is that hes both willing to pretend like the sort of Chamois Lawyers that are telling him things like Rudy Giuliani are brilliant and geniuses and eastman are geniuses, but at the same time, hes literally preparing to throw his own lawyers under the bus. Thats one of his strategies, to say its their fault. Then he had all these lawyers who were blunkys. Lets talk about bill barr, was a complete flunky. Twisted the Justice Department to turn it into trumps law firm, but now hes willing to say that guy, because he gave me sound legal advice in this one case about the election is now the enemy and heres how hes treating him. Whats really terrifying about that amalsis is listen, there are good apples, bad apples and the ones everyone would kind of ignore. In this instance, putting aside some of the lawyers he picks out of Parking Garages kind of stuff, he actually has exceptionally trained attorneys that end up being a part of his arsenal that he deploys to be able to get what he wants. These are not casual practicers of the law, these are people, for example, like bill barr, like kenneth chesebro, like john eastman. These are not people who just fell into the practice of law. They were actual scholars and or they were actual practitioners of a profession within which to Charles Point were regulated by bars, by licenses. We have to make sure we comply. Whats problematic is these lawyers like chesebro and eastman, they found also willing patsies like jeffrey clark, remember, if i find an oil spill, ill let you know, jeffrey, right . That kind of idea. They run the gamut of experience, but they also do not run the gamut, though, of morality. They do not have a variation on a theme of morality. They only ascribe to one particular completely debased version tof. To throw away willingly something that is not cheap or easy to get, law degrees are not cheap to get or easy to get, and getting your law license is not that easy to get or inexpensive to get, but theyre just casually throwing it away for a man that would literally throw them under the bus, is shocking to me because what is it worth . Now theyre all being disbarred, now they cant practice law, and for what . For a guy to pretend like youre the next cofeoffee lawyer. Thats a problem i think that i dont understand the siren song of donald trump, that it works for these lawyers to say to hell with it, im willing to jeopardize all of it for you. Hes like a mob lawyer. Yesterday, a man was shot and killed after posting numerous threats against any of the prosecutors involved in prosecuting donald trump. He was shot and killed in utah, where the current president was visiting, charles. You had fani willis talk about the fact shes getting constant threats. Theres constant threats now against all these prosecutors. To say nothing of, you know this very well, you need witnesses to come forward. The witnesses in this case dont have security, dont have secret service like mike pence does. Youre now going to have to have witnesses, and donald trump is on his social media saying if you come after me, i come after you. There are a lot of witnesses who are going to say its not worth it to me. This guy is threatening my life, look at what happened to ruby freeman and shea moss. They got death threats, lynching threats, people picketing outside their homes. Talk about that. Donald trump, it feels like hes turning this case into an opportunity to hurt people for him to silence them. Well, joy, what donald trump has done is hes figured out a way in some cases that he believes hes going to be able to short circuit the legal system. And if he cant short circuit it by delaying it for as long as he can, hes going to now try to poison and toxify the environment around all of these cases in such a way where no one wants to participate. You have already talked about the difficulty of witnesses and as a former prosecutor, both katie and i can tell you that there are so many different times where you may have a defendant dead to rights but because of the pressure that is being put on a witness or their exposure of having to go into a particular environment they know is not safe for themselves, they will not cooperate, making it infinitely more difficult to prosecute. Lets also talk about the fact that right now if you consider what donald trump is doing in his public smear campaign, hes also poisoning an entire jury pool. Hes doing that as well by trying to advance a narrative on his own before the first pieces of discovery have even been turned over in such a way that even as you may get 12 people who sit and promise to be fair and impartial, they have already been inundated by so much from Donald Trumps own platforms that they themselves may have a difficult time going into that case and making a fair decision on either partys behalf. I think that for people who, you know, call themselves fans of donald trump, hes not like you. Youre more like walt nauta. Youre more like de oliveira. Regular people arent like him. Theyre like the people that hes using. Theyre not going to have the protection. And if they turn on him, he is like a mob boss. Youre like the witnesses in this case. Youre not like trump. He has like a gold toilet in his new york house. This is crazy. Katie phang and Charles Coleman jr. , thank you both very much. Up next on the reidout, propublica delivers yet another bombshell on the luxurious lifestyle of a Certain Supreme Court justice thanks to the unprecedented generosity of his Billionaire Buddies. The reidout continues after this. L, easytouse tools, power e trade makes complex trading easier. React to fastmoving markets with dynamic charting and a Futures Ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you wont miss an opportunity. E trade from morgan stanley. Dupixent helps you du more with less asthma. And can help you breathe better in as little as 2 weeks. Dupixent is an addon treatment for specific types of moderatetosevere asthma thats not or sudden breathing problems. Dupixent can cause allergic reactions that can be severe. Get help right away if you have rash, chest pain, worsening shortness of breath, tingling or numbness in your limbs. Tell your doctor about new or worsening joint aches and pain, or a parasitic infection. Dont change or stop asthma medicines, including steroids, without talking to your doctor. Ask your specialist about dupixent. Im hearing different ways for me to screen for colon cancer. Its time to use my voice, ive got a choice, more than one answer. I sat down with my doc. We had a talk. Knew just what to say. I asked for cologuard and did it my way. Cologuard is a oneofa kind way to screen for colon cancer thats effective and noninvasive. Its for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. False positive and negative results may occur. Ask your provider for cologuard. I did it my way ambience of room, crickets, Scrolling Content on phone theyre off from school, but not really home. Images and videos. Social media, finetuned to suck them in. And steal them away. Alone you cant stop it. Together we will. We have a plan. Join us. rsv can be a dangerous virus. [sneeze]. For those 60 and older. Its not just a cold. And if youre 60 or older. You may be at increased risk of hospitalization. [coughing]. From this highly. Contag