Were in the clear. The video showing stone talk about the elector scheme in the early days of november, 2020, hence at more daubs to be connected. That is the context for the massive reaction to the tape first aired right here on the beat last night. The reaction coming from across the Media Landscape to write here on msnbc. Trump ally, roger stone, dictating an outline of that plot to his assistant. Exclusive, new evidence obtained by my colleague shows, could have some explaining to do. He is laying out the fraudulent electors scheme. It is amazing there hasnt been any indictments. It is impossible logic, how he could use this to not go against the trump. He is discussing this plot when trump isnt even officially the loser. There are a number of people just like roger stone having that same idea at the same time. The footages from danish filmmaker, Christopher Gould branson, shot for his documentary, a storm foretold. It shows longterm gop strategist and trump ally, roger stone, on november 5th, 2020. Lets be clear, that is two days after the election, but two days before the race was called for joe biden. Stone is dictating a message about the elector plot. The message is intended for his associates on an encrypted group chat. There is a portion of the footage. Any legislative body may decide, on the basis of overwhelming evidence of fraud, to send electors to the Electoral College, who accurately reflect the president s legitimate victory in their state, which was illegally denied him through fraud. We must be prepared to lobby our republican legislatures. You heard it. Roger stone outlining a plan to get republican State Legislatures to take control of the election results. The newly revealed footage marks one of the earliest known points at which trump allies discussed the electors part. Msnbc legal analyst Andrew Wiseman pointing out stone was doing this while out on bail from his conviction in the molar probe. That was for Witness Tampering and lying to congress, and trump later pardoned him. Stone declined to comment yesterday. Today, he did respond on social media saying in part, roger stone still did nothing wrong. We dont know if or to what extent stone elected on the elector plot. The January 6th Committee did obtain the contents of the encrypted group chat no one was addressing. According to New York Times, some members are only identified by nicknames or officials. Includes stop as the organizers and rightwing organizers like in re guitar yeo, head of the problem is, and stewart rhodes, head of the oath keepers. Joining me to speak on all of this is nick offerman, former watergate prosecutor who interviewed roger stone when investigating the nixon case. And emily vaslet, legal writer for the new york magazine. Thank you so much for joining us today, because this is astounding. Nick, i just want to start with this. Given your history with roger stone, given what we now have him on tape saying, can you understand why he wasnt a part of a new set of indictments . Or, do you think that he might be sort of an unindicted Co Conspirator . Do you think he flipped . How is that man still Walking Around free if he was still engaging in something so blatant, even if we just revealed it again with this video . Well, i think the real problem here is that in the january 6th indictment that was brought to the District Of Columbia by jack smith, he wanted to keep it really simple, and had only donald trump as a defendant so he could get this to trial in january or february of next year. Now, with respect to roger stone, i guarantee you they have something on him. I mean, just to give you a couple little tidbits, we know that roger stone was on capitol hill on january 5th, the day before the riot. He was hanging out with the very people that you just mentioned in that group chat, the proud boys, and the oath keepers. In fact, he was photographed with the three of the oath keepers who have pled guilty to seditious conspiracy and agreed to cooperate with the government. None of those witnesses, those three witnesses have not been called in any of the oath keeper trials. And i think the radical reason is, probably they are saving those people for roger stone. If they had had them testify in the original trials, they would have had to turn over all of the statements and reveal what they have said about roger stone. So, my sense is that roger stones day is coming. Buckle up your seatbelt, and just sit and wait. Emily, so, what i heard roger stone saying in the tape and maybe i am off about this but it seems like it was sort of a sloppy, 10th grade, Political Science project version of the independent legislature theory, that legislatures can kind of make their own rules, and be their own power falls within them. Lets play devils advocate for a second. Is there anything inherently wrong with him just voicing a Crackpot Theory . What is it about this particular video that is so damning . It is not just what he is saying, but it is the time he is saying it, right . Ya, it is the time he is saying it, a couple of days after the election. We know from the indictment in the georgia case, that other people are being indicted for taking actions over at ask, in the words of rico, the statute issued here, to take action to further this plot to put fake electors up. And thus, overturn the legitimate results of the election. Still, it seems like he is thinking through that plan here. If i was his lawyer, i would try to put a lot of weight on the fact that he says republicans may need to go to lobby their State Legislatures. And so, i suppose with that kind of hedge, you could argue he is just putting together a theory, he is just imagining a world of fraud, as opposed to claiming that there is actually fraud, and telling people to go get started. So, the New York Times has this heading about the Friends Of Stone, nick. It talks about this group chat, the list suggests that mr. Stone had the means to be in contact with key players on january 6th, political organizers, rightwing extremists, media figures who hoped to play down the attack look, you mentioned this before. We know where roger stone was, we know he was helping to set fires. What is the significance when we think about the threats that have come to state legislature, the threats come to elected officials what is the significance of him being on tape with people who we know have publicly advocated and engaged in, and offered aid and comfort to people who have committed acts of violence for donald trump . Well, it is very significant because roger stone is basically Donald Trumps go to guy for dirty tricks. This is the person he relied on, in terms of interfacing with the russian agents who had stolen documents out of the dnc for the 2016 election. This is the person who was always on call when donald trump needs him to do the Dirty Business that donald trump wants done. Or, that roger stone has recommended. What we havent seen in any of these indictments, is placing the blame on anyone in the white house. Either donald trump or anyone else, for the actual inciting of the violence that took place. Certainly, roger stone was on the scene dealing with the people who actually did the violence, and i guarantee you if we had a way to get every single conversation roger stone had with Donald Trump On January 5th and january 6th, they would both be indicted for inciting the violence in a nanosecond. The problem is, the didnt always get that evidence. They were communicating through encrypted means. But, like i said before, there are some witnesses out there that we have not heard from that may ultimately put the nail in that coffin. I mean, we cant guarantee if we had it, but it would probably put them in more trouble. And i do see your point, because of donald trump is king joffrey, then clearly roger stone is his little finger, right . He does all the work, he does the behind the scenes things that people dont want to get their hands messy with. Emily, here is a sound bite on stones communication with extremist groups. I want to play this and get your thoughts on the other side, how that plays out and the rest of the violence that was associated with this plot that we have him on tape talking about. Stone communicated with both the proud boys and the oath keepers, regularly. The committee obtained encrypted content from a group chat called Friends Of Stone. Fos. It focused on various Pro Trump Events on november and december of 2020, as well as january 6th. Emily, i am in lots of group chats. This court, signal. They dont usually have to be encrypted because we are not discussing anything that is potentially illegal. When we hear that all of this communication was encrypted, some of what the January 6th Committee got, from a legal standpoint, is that something that is somewhat damning . If you are putting across so much effort to keep your communications private, if you are putting across so much effort to keep these conversations secret from the public, possibly secret from any other elected officials, is that the kind of thing, legally, that shows intent that may play out in future investigations, or possibly indictments of roger stone . Well, first of all, i want to be in the friends of jason group chat. Second of all, it depends on the other context. Simply taking part in an encrypted chat, we would not want that to be enough to incriminate someone or them, because people have lots of reasons to want to keep their communications private. The thing about stone that is so tantalizing and i think that is why we keep circling back to this idea that his did day may come he is involved in all the organizing and thinking about january 6th. And now, about the fake elector plot. It is hard to imagine given what we know about him and the role he has been playing that there isnt more here. I am also really interested in nicks point about these witnesses and why the government might be withholding them. And also, i am curious as to those whether one of those unindicted coconspirators in the georgia indictment there are so many of them, there 30 of them one of them be roger stone . Now that fanny willis knows about this tape, which he see that as enough to add him . It really does depend on what other evidence the prosecutors have. We know some of it from congress from the January 6th Investigations, but we dont know exactly the extent of what georgia and the federal government have. Nick ackerman, thank you so much for starting off the show with us today. Emily, please stick around. I am coming back to you shortly, as i will be getting into another tantalizing clue about the stone video and the elector plot. Later, a former Top Republican in the doj speaks out about trumps criminal exposure. And threats from Trump Supporters to grand jurors. Back in 60 seconds. This is Jason Johnson on the beat. An meet the team. Behind the team. The coach. The manager. And the snack dad. All using chase to keep up with their finances. The coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. Anddd check this out. The manager deposited a check. Magic. And the snack dad . Hes getting paid back. Orange slicesss. Because this team all has chase. Smart bankers. Convenient tools. One bank with the power of both. Chase. Make more of whats yours. Back with more on our exclusive roger stone video, because there is another angle i want us to get to. Again, here is stone talking about the elector scheme as early as november 5th, 2020. Any legislative body made decide on the basis of overwhelming evidence of fraud, to send electors to the Electoral College who accurately reflect the president s legitimate victory in their state, which was illegally denied him through fraud. Msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin points out this day, november 5th, is the very same date that pro trump lawyer, lida mitchell, email john eastman saying, what would you think of producing a legal memo outlining the constitutional role of State Legislatures in designating electors . Four days later on november 9th, eastman is circulating a memo titled, the Constitutional Authority of State Legislators to choose electors. One more thing. It was mark meadows who recruited that lawyer i mentioned into the efforts to overturn the election. In the same timeframe, early november, meadows was texting with gop lawmakers and don junior about the electors part, including text about the scene as early as november 4th, a day before the stone video. By november, meadows is telling someone he had a team on it and now is lisa rubin, msnbc legal analyst, and emily sassine, New York Times legal writer. Lisa, this is the thing. I dont have to be Rudy Giuliani to know a legal case. I dont have a legal expert to know a large fema conspiracy. The fact that we now have this larger stone video, and it lines up with other peoples this plot, do you think there is any chance that it just stops with those people because my guess is this is, he knows how many people were involved with this call, this game of telephone before it got to clean the children before it got to. Other people who might be flushed out of the bushes because of this video . Absolutely. We can even see the city that jason, in the January 6th Investigations at the house. I found that email that you showed a few minutes ago in the january 6ths public files. That is where you also can see rick perry, of all people, texting with meadows on the floor, the same thing, and on the same day, november 5th, you see a right how speech writer, who came to the committees attention, because he worked under stephen, was part of as being the president to stop the steel speech and his speech on the rally on january 6th, he has that idea, too, and he flushes them out in a series of his own emails to an employee of the office of president ial personnel. Its a coincidence that all of these people are coming up with this independent state Legislature Doctrine light theory as early as november 4th and fifth . Probably not. You know, we dont have the complete roster of who was on the Friends Of Stone tax list, but my guess is that Friends Of Stone and friends of Friends Of Stone start circulating at percolating this theory around that time and it moves outward from there. You know, i am a College Professor at morgan state, and if i saw a whole bunch of kids turning in a very similar people at the same time, i might start tracing back emails and say, who did this originate with . Im pretty sure you didnt come up with this idea on your own. Emily, one of the other things that i would like the fact that we are hearing about these other people, Cleta Mitchell it seems i dont know, sort of like a moderate day. Meyer, a crackpot lawyer that team trump surrounded either orbit. He, at one point, had her on an Election Committee the federal government, cost or sorts of problems and issues. When you have a person like this involved in the and pots, what are the steps to bring them in . Would they be disbarred, similar to Rudy Giuliani . Is this the person who might get criminal charges against her . Or is this someone you would flip in order to catch a larger fish like roger stone, or bring additional charges against trump . You know, the people who are lawyers who could be disciplined by the bar for taking part in these schemes, that is something people should be concerned about. I am not sure that mitchell rises to that level, but certainly, that has been true for some of the other lawyers involved, and that is something the profession can do to protect itself. She also could be someone who the georgia prosecutors or the Justice Department is talking to in terms of what she knows, particularly since she was obviously in direct contact with eastman who we know has already been indicted and i think we are just reminding ourselves what we are talking about. They were talking about the idea that we all go vote, Somebody Wins in state and that winner gets the Electoral College votes. Oh, no, wait a second, we are going to have the State Legislator make some decision that there was fraud and they will pick the winner instead. That is just not how american democracy works. It is just a very serious overturning of the will of the people that they were discussing her. And it is also very telling because again, the timeline is, you are saying this before it was announced. You are anticipating this is a person who is saying, i lost the game because the field is bad. Well, you arent even playing yet, the game hasnt been called. Well, your intent is to make sure it means your way regardless of what actually happened. Lisa, i want to play you some sound from Cassidy Hutchinson testifying about what trump said in this case, and get your thoughts on the other side. Is it your understanding that President Trump asked mark meadows to speak with roger stone and general food when on january 5th . That is correct, that is my understanding. Ms. Hutchinson, is it your understanding that mr. Meadows called mr. Stone on the fifth . I am under the impression that mr. Meadows did complete a call to both mr. Stone and general flynn t