To go back and, i mean, i dont know. A refresher on jim jordans Insurrection Ties as he seeks the house gavel, and why its a blinking red light for the american experiment. If you want to know what it looks like when democracy is in trouble, this is what it looks like. Plus, why the trump request to dismiss his coup charges may be destined for the Supreme Court. And the chilling echoes of authoritarians passed, as a republican front runner warns of immigrants poisoning american blood, when all in starts, right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. The last time that donald trump wanted to go to the capitol it was to lead a violent coup against the duly elected american government. You remember this is when he supposedly had a tantrum in the president ial limousine. He wanted to go so badly that he got into a physical altercation with the Secret Service over it, according to testimony before the january Six Committee. The Secret Service understood that sending the president to lead an armed riot would present something of a safety concern. But in some ways more importantly i think they also understood that they could end up in a situation where they were essentially drafted into service as the armed Praetorian Guard of the wouldbe coup, entering the capitol with a duty to protect the president in defiance of the Armed Police Officers who were defending it. Gun against gun, creating a situation of unprecedented constitutional peril. Thankfully, that did not happen. The Secret Service held their ground. They didnt let him go. But now donald trump wants to go to the capitol again to continue the project he started on january 6th, ending American Democracy as we know it. Part of that includes undermining the Department Of Justice investigation into him, their attempt to hold him accountable to law so he does not have to go to prison. In fact today he filed a motion to dismiss the january six case out right against him, citing president ial immunity. He is hoping this motion will make its way to the 63 Supreme Court that he appointed one third of and that they will find a way to let him off the hook, at the very least delay things until after the election. That is the play here. But if that doesnt work, donald trump is publicly floating he could be the next Speaker Of The House, after republicans fired the last guy for the first time in american history. A lot of people have been asking me to be speaker. All i can say is, look at what the country has would you take the job . A lot of people have asked me about it. I would help them in the process. But there are people in Republican Party that can agree job is speaker. A few hours ago trump told fox news, quote, they have asked me if i would take it first short period of time for the party, until they come to a colusion. Im not doing it because i want toyeah, sure, i will do it if nessary, should they not be able to make their decision. I dont know, what does that mean . Look, it goes without saying, i think, the donald trump as Speaker Of The House, or second in line to the presidency, would be bad for everyone, probably disastrous. It would be bad for the country, bad for American Democracy and i think outright dangerous. Becoming speaker would not absolve trump of his criminal liability, although i think he might have some notion it will, so i sincerely hope it does not happen. The fundamental problem of course is that trump, or someone like him, is what the Republican Base has demanded. To some extent, marco voters want their party to be on ungovernable. A lot of this has been stoked by cynical voices in the party in the rightwing media. To be fair, people that are making a lot of money off of this, but if you want to perfect illustration of this problem, which is what would happen if trump were to become speaker . The most basic level it appears that they would have to change the actual house rules, because as of now, the house rules quite sensibly say that someone who has been indicted for felony that carries more than two years in prison cannot serve in leadership. The problem is, many folks in the Maga Movement won trump for speaker, not in spite of his indictments but because of it, because trump matters to them inasmuch as he can vandalize, desecrate and destroy the institutions they have come to despise. The best we can do right now is how President Trump on an interim basis, return to the nations capitol, walk in to the sanctuary of nancy pelosi. Think about it for a second. How would the established order except that . Thats what he is good for you, folks. That dude. In his tshirts and his four hour live stream every day, awaiting possibly going to prison. Remember, there are people that invaded the capitol and actually devastated in the halls . Basically thats the Selling Point here. Is that a vision of what a good life would look like, a good society, Good Government . Thats the vision. Thats it. Thats what they got. There not trying to hide their motivations here. Theres a new poll out today that provides an incredible case study, and a study in contrast, with the vision that steve bannon articulated in the Democratic Party, and among the base approach the same issue. So as you have no doubt heard, and has been covered on this program and many others on this network, bob menendez of new jersey was indicted on federal charges last night. He is good accused of taking bribes to abuse his position as chair of the Senate ForeignRelations Committee and provide special favors to government. Senator menendez has denied the charges. He says he will vigorously mount a defence. But we should note, last time he was indicted by the Department Of Justice they did fail to secure a conviction. So thats a good the internet. And of course of the senator is do, the Presumption Of Innocence of law, like all citizens protected by the constitution. But the Presumption Of Innocence doesnt provide magical immunity of in the court of public opinion. People are allowed to form opinions about you especially if you are sitting politicians. You cant say a well due process. You can see that in the way that the Democratic Party has responded to that damning indictment, as two senators, Democratic Senators have called on menendez to resign. States democratic governor has also said that menendez has to go. And then today we got this, which is to, me fascinating. It says a lot. We have the first look at what democratic primary voters think. Basically the Democratic Base. Guess what . Unlike in the Republican Party, the indictment has not helped robert menendez. In fact, the indictment has done what you would expect. Menendez is losing badly. He is polling at 5 . Thats the sitting incumbent democratic senator. Hes polling at 5 in the three way race. Andy kim who has thrown his hat in the ring is democratic congressman in new jersey has 42 . I again, dense just based on the news. Sitting senator, indictment, Democratic Party leadership says the guys gotta go, thats how Democratic Base voters respond. But thats just one of the two gravitational fields that exist in the physics of american politics. There are two Different Gravitational fields that exist. There is one where you get indicted and everything pulls towards your resignation. Your party calls for you to resign, voters abandon you, and theres another. Getting indicted on anyone charges in four jurisdictions, which pushes you toward leadership and popularity. Poll numbers go up. Not only that but in addition to supporting for president , the party encourages you to run for House Of Representatives in the interim. Run the House Of Representatives. And all of this, ultimately, inference of the vile political project you began when you tried to overthrow American Democracy. Claire mccaskill is a former democratic senator in missouri now the cohost of the msnbc podcast how to win 2024, and she joins me now. In any moment of the last eight years with some little piece of data in the world are just makes me feel like im standing on earth, i feel this sense of brief relief. And when i saw the polling of menendez, it was like, again, i dont know if hes guilty. I cant say if theyre gonna prove this case. But yeah, the indictment was, it looked really bad. Democratic leadership has said this guy is a problem. The voters are like, yeah, i dont like this. That, to me, was like, right, this is the way it can work and does work in one portion of american politics. This is the way it is supposed to work. In one party you have people who warned the norms of ethical behavior and the respect for the rule of law. And frankly, the sense that whether he did something illegal or not, what is in that indictment makes it an unattractive to vote for as United States senator. I mean thats the essence here. Thats the essence. And on the other hand, youve got a guy indicted, as you say, 91 felony counts, and his party wants to bring him back to the capitol and have him in charge. Of the only part of judge government taking control. Its a breaking glass moment because if there arent enough republicans that stand up and say, come on folks, really . Are we really going to go down all those guys that one and women that one in biden districts, theyre done. They are down. Hakeem jeffries will be the new Speaker Of The House in january of 2025. End of discussion. Talk about how to win 2024, let donald trump back in the capitol. Yes. I do agree with, you always hedge with the fact the features and certain lots of crazy stuff has happened in the time that i have been hosting this show but yes. My next question to you wise, when you think about the vote on the motion to vacate, all republicans are mad because it was eight votes. Tiny little sliver of the caucus. I understand why they are mad. That annoying. When eight of your colleagues blow this thing up. The question is, the math works the same way in reverse. The speaker needs to get to 17 or 2 18 depending on, i think there are a few vacancies. There are eight members in the house caucus who should be able to say no way. No. Were not voting for donald trump for speaker. Theyve got the same Power Leverage in the situation. Its a question of whether they are too cowardly to exercise it if it comes to that. I want to believe that this is just him looking for another moment and i think it probably is. But the fact that they think its a good idea to tout it, i believe, by allowed the majority of them will be horrified of this idea. I agree. I think everybody ought to remember, gaetzs deal was about the deficit. They control government first two years of trumps president ial term. They controlled everything. They didnt do anything on deficit. And that was precovid. They did nothing on the deficit. They did nothing to bring down spending. He believed and running up the debt. He didnt do anything to secure the southern border. Its so as if this guy was a strong leader that he just had levers of power he could do, the crazy caucus, is that would be one thing, but we know he cant. He didnt. Even when they controlled all of government. So, i know its a normal analysis, not a crazy town analysis, but would help these guys to look back and see what trump actually did when he was president. Forget all the lying. Just how bad he wasnt delivering on anything they believed in. Yeah. And again, ultimately this is what bannon said. That is the impulse. There is a cult of personality and also the middle finger. Basically. Were going to come in and tear the place up and, to your point about what we said about, it i totally agree, but i have a little this queasy feeling that its got one of these enertial things, someone sort of floated the idea and then they planted it and then no one in this party has ever shown a unified ability to give a hard now. And again, so its madness to contemplate, but until youve got eight declared no votes, or seven, whatever it takes in the republican caucus, you can shut the door, and they have never done that in the time he has been around. No, what they have done is highland ridgeesques and told people like me how much they hate donald trump. There are those people there. The question is, what will it take them to get out from under their desks . In the fetal position, where theyre just make him go away make him go away, hes awful, hes horrible. Hopefully there will be eight of them that will step up. I kind of believe there will be because at least there are eight of them that can ever get reelected if they do this. Yes. You would think, although, again, the logic of Self Preservation is weird. As one of the strangest things about this whole thing. The kind of polisci 101, you as an elected politician, having had a very successful career, you are a reelection seeker, right . A rational agent trying to find the aids voter, trying to get reelected, and that logic has, should have been more constraining than it has been so far. We will see what happens if and when this comes next week. Claire mccaskill, always good to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you, chris. So, again, to declare the point, i tend to think its its one of these who knows . So if that is Speaker Of The House is not donald trump, and again, i think it likely will not be. If i had to bet, i would bet against it. There are two official declared candidates, the first is congressman steve scalise, and mccarthy lieutenant who wants to clear himself, quote, david duke without the baggage, thats an actual quote, when he was coming up in louisiana politics. He was declaring that is a Selling Point, just for context. And theres this gentleman, that would be ohio congressman jim jeffries. Sorry, jim jordan. [laughter] jim jordan, you probably recognize him. He spent a lot of time on television. Hes been doing the rounds trying to sell himself as a serious legislator and peacemaker, as if we have all not been watching his antics for the last five years. Heres the thing. The line between that gentlemen, jim jordan, and matt gaetz, is really thin. Like, its the width of a coat suit jacket. And it is worth noting that jordan appears to be as implicated in the coup plot, again, the original sin here, the crime of the century, as it were, he is as implicated as almost any other legislator. Scott perry may be close. Remember, jim jordan was subpoenaed by the january Six Committee and he just ignored it. A subpoena from the House Of Representatives, which he would be running, where you do when speaker. So before hes put in charge of congress, shouldnt have a better answer for what his role was on the day the capitol was overrun by a violent mob . I, i, im kind in amazed. I talked to the president last. Week on january six, did you speak with him before during or after the capitol was attacked. I would have to go i spoke with him that day after i think after. I dont know if i spoke with him in the morning. I just dont know. I would have to go back and, i mean, i dont know about that, when this conversation happened, but all i know is i spoke to him all the time. By the way, we did not speed up that tape to make him sound extra untrustworthy. Jim jordan, Like Mccarthy and scalise, is one of the lawmakers who, after fleeing the violence sacking of the capitol, for their own personal safety were escorted away. And after the capitol have been cleared, they returned to the chamber, whereupon they voted in favor of the coup. They voted with the mob. So, yeah, jim jordan is not donald trump, but pretty close. Congresswoman dean is a democrat of pennsylvania, impeachment manager for serves on judiciary committee, chaired by congressman jordan, and she joins me now. Let me say first, congresswoman, your democrat, jim jordan is a republican, youre gonna vote for hakim jeffries, not jim jordan. But ive covered Congress Long enough that members will often say, that person, i have a good working relationship, we worked on legislation before, we dont see eye to eye. Where are you on jim jordan as possible speaker . I am pleased to be with you and always glad to hear from Claire Mccaskill and her rational wisdom and experience. Thanks for having me. That clip you just showed of mr. Jordan stammering to come up with his memory, could he have spoken to the president during the rare insurrection at capitol the where we all ran for allies, most of us with gas masks . I remember who i called. It was my family, my children, my husband, and you would remember as you are fleeing for your life whether or not you spoke to your good friend the president Who Incited Americans to come attack americans. So that tells you everything you need to know about mr. Jordan. He is incredible, he has been sadly, i think, very glib in other places when he is viewing disinformation, lies, in support of his own power, his own search for power, in fealty to this extraordinarily grotesquely failed former president , and so i presume that his bid for speaker is doomed. I cannot see him getting 218 votes, or whatever will be required and heres why. I served with him on the judiciary committee. I watched him in the