Describes the secret meeting to catch and kill stories from Karen Mcdougal and Stormy Daniels before they could sink Donald Trumps president ial campaign. Now, that is not illegal. So, how does testimony from pecker help the prosecution prove that trump committed a crime . Plus, trumps attorney tieing himself in rhetorical knots, trying to defend trumps Social Media Posts and convince the judge trump has not violated his gag order. Todd blanche saying the president is being very careful and the frustrating judge responding, quote, youre losing all credibility with this court. Why is he waiting to rule . And taking its toll, with reporters observing trump as looking thinner and older, against many parts of todays proceedings with his eyes closed and venting his frustration on social media, what will be the impact on this trial and the race for president . We have got more on that coming up. But we start with former National Enquirer ceo david pecker back on the stand right now. One of the few men in the room with donald trump when the prosecution says the conspiracy at the heart of this trial was hatched. Pecker testifying today about that critical Trump Tower Meeting in which he, trump and Michael Cohen hashed out a plan to keep potentially damaging stories from becoming public. In peckers words, it was mutually beneficial, helping to sell papers while simultaneously helping Donald Trumps campaign. I want to bring in nbcs Vaughn Hillyard outside the courthouse for us. In the studio, Catherine Christian, former assistant d. A. At the Manhattan District Attorneys Office and msnbc legal analyst, chuck rosenberg, former u. S. Attorney, senior fbi official and msnbc contributor. A lot to get to today. Vaughn what is the very latest . Reporter david pecker has now testified over the course of the last two hours, essentially corroborating public statements that Michael Cohen now made for years, that in august of 2015, at a meeting at trump tower between him, donald trump and Michael Cohen, that they concocted the catch and kill scheme. Not only of salacious stories like what ultimately would become the Stormy Daniels story, but also to plant negative stories about his opponents, incluing from the likes of ted cruz to hillary clinton. We also have david pecker testifying this morning that donald trump was a micromanager, somebody who evaluated the invoices that were provided and the checks that were provided to him, and had a good understanding about the finances that he was involved in. And we have david pecker, over the course of these last two hours, testifying they have been friends, dating back to the 1980s and for the better part of a decade, they had a mutual relationship when donald trump was on the air with The Apprentice and in which the two would exchange, number one, money from david pecker to donald trump in exchange for stories about behind the scenes secret information related to The Apprentice and Celebrity Apprentice there is back and forth over Steve Bannons role in 2016 in this scheme, in which david pecker says he was introduced to steve bannon by donald trump and was told to work with steve bannon about some of these potential stories as it related to hillary clinton. We also have testimony here coming from david pecker in just the last few minutes about the about the efforts within the National Enquirer to secret is conversations with trump and Michael Cohen, but also were getting at the heart of potential Documentary Evidence that the prosecution would like to bring forward before the jury. Right now, he is asking the prosecution is asking david pecker about Text Messages and email records that were within American Media incorporated, of course david pecker is no longer the publisher, but this is getting at the ability to enter these records into the into the courts in front of the jury here. And that is where we find ourselves nearly two hours now into david peckers second day of testimony. Chris . Vaughn, get back to us if there is any other major Breaking News from inside that courthouse. But, catherine, let me start with you, with what he just talked about, right, there is what people say, and what Documentary Evidence, what phone calls, what other kinds of evidence prove and i want to give you the analysis of what just happened from lisa rubin. She writes the prosecution is asking the series of questions to allow admission of ami Business Records that pecker himself might not be on. She said it is important because as the chairman and ceo during the time period in question, pecker can authenticate the records and get them into evidence. The defense is objecting, saying this is hearsay, why is this important . It is legally called laying the foundation. So, the prosecution is laying the foundation for the admission of these documents. And youre going to do it through the head of the ami, the company where it came from. And pecker is very important witness because hes at the center of the scheme to influence the election. That Trump Tower Meeting he was at, he said im going to be the eyes and ears. And the little nuggets he said during the testimony, vaughn picked up on one of them, describing trump as a micromanager. Let me read exactly what he said. Very detail oriented, also micromanaging, i thought his approach to money, he was very cautious and very frugal. It is very important. When the defense says, oh, he was hands off, you know, Michael Cohen did all of that, pecker is saying, no, this is someone who is very hands on, very detail oriented, invoices are part of the Business Records that trump allegedly falsified. It is very important testimony. And it is only the beginning. They were friends. At least to the extent, chuck, they saw each other pretty regularly. He actually started a magazine for donald trump. They would see each other at the very least quarterly, but often multiple times, of course, sometimes once a month. Is that relationship that was established early on important . Does it give him credibility as somebody talking about donald trump . To catherines point, youre not just laying the foundation to admit documents. Youre also laying the foundation to the jury as to why they ought to believe, you know, mr. Pecker. And when he says, for instance, that trump was detail oriented or micromanager, how would he know that . He would know that because they have spent so much time together. He would know that because they have discussed business together. So, youre laying the foundation in many ways, and, by the way, youre not just doing it through mr. Pecker. Hes, you know, witness number one on days number one and two. Theyre going to be many more witnesses, and theyre going the prosecutors are going to ask all the witnesses how do you know the things that you say you know . What is the basis for it. All of that foundational testimony tells the jury in essence, you can trust the governments case. So, catherine, the prosecution has been drilling down on alleged conspiracy. Hatch, between these three guys that now Infamous Trump tower meeting, and, vaughn talked about this, as part of that, they allege pecker agreed to be the eyes and ears of the campaign. The eyes and ears. Publish flattering stories about trump, negative stories about his opponent, but as we have said, thats not a crime, paying hush money is not a crime. So, what is the value in establishing that . Because theyre going to argue the prosecution, this was all part of trying to unlawfully influence the election. So, they have to, the prosecutor, prove there was an intent to defraud and there was an intent to conceal and commit another crime as part of the proof of that falsifying Business Records. So, all this testimony is beginning to establish that. And we havent even gotten to that ami pay 30,000 to the door man and 150,000 to the playboy model, miss mcdougal. All of that, mr. Mcdougal will be back, or back on thursday. Who knows when Cross Examination will start. We talk about Michael Cohen being the main witness, david pecker, you can say coequal or even more of a main witness for the prosecution. It is interesting to me the way that they have structured this case, chuck, and im very curious what you think. Because it can be very difficult when youre laying the foundation or youre doing technical testimony, frankly to keep the attention of the jurors, theyre sitting there, although ten of the 12 asked for notebooks. Many may be taking notes. Theyre getting an inside look at the world that was the National Enquirer, inside world of catch and kill. They talked about how the negative articles went out about ted cruz. Pecker said negative articles, headlines, main images we published on mr. Trumps opponents that he would get information from Michael Cohen and then the National Enquirer would embellish it from there. When he said we, he said, cohen, was talking about it, i thought he was talking about himself and mr. Trump. How important is the Salacious Inside Baseball part of this, as they weave this story . Well, you want to give a jury, to your point, chris, a peek behind the curtain. The articles didnt happen by chance, that there was a rhyme and a reason for them, and it was orchestrated, not just by mr. Pecker, but mr. Cohen at mr. Trumps direction. Not everything in a trial is salacious. Not everything in a trial is interesting. In the movies, of course, it always is. In real life, there are parts that are dry, and when youre just perhaps authenticating documents through custodians of record, but this part i would imagine is not dry. It could become dry. You have to be careful. You dont want to linger too long on this one topic. But do you want to sprinkle that stuff in, make sure youre keeping their attention . Sure. Absolutely. I think thats important in the following sense you want to they get to pick who they want to put on and what order they want to put on. You sprinkle in some interesting witnesses throughout the trial, maybe if you have to put in records, you do it at the end of the long day, though i like to end on a high note. The government gets to pick how they do this. Not everything will be riveting. But everything will be important. So, there are also making a big deal about a 2016 recording, and this is where the Prosecution Points out you can hear donald trump talking to Michael Cohen about paying off allegedly Karen Mcdougal, this is first reported by the New York Times but released generally to the public. Let me play that to remind folks what that recording sounds like. I node to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend david, you know, so that im going to do that right away. Ive actually come up and ive spoken give it to me and ive spoken to Allen Weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up. So what do we got to pay for this . Yes. And it is all the stuff. Yeah, i was thinking about that. All the stuff. Because here you never know what the company he gets hit by correct. Im all over that. And i spoke to allen about it, when it comes time for the financing, which will be wait a sec, what financing . Well, i have to pay something. Pay with cash. No, no, no. I got it. Trial class 101 as i understand it, i have never taken it, but you dont say anything in opening that you cant prove, right . One of the things that todd blanche said was basically donald trump really wasnt involved in the details, and in that level of it, but you heard him say, give it to me, what do we pay this, pay with cash, what do you make of that recording the prosecution is, here it is, hes involved. Smoking gun. The smoking gun. You know, Michael Cohen is talking about setting up a company, donald trump said lets pay cash. Michael cohen said no. The defense will say, that tape ends with no, no, no, i got it. Thats Michael Cohen. So, there is really Michael Cohen was steering it and our client really just said, the minimal. So, thats what theyre going to have to do if that audio, the defense, but clearly the prosecution is going to say, look, detail oriented, micromanager, listen to the tape, it speaks for itself. One thing that occurred to me when i listened to this again yesterday, this gets at the heart of Beyond A Reasonable Doubt, right . You can make an argument as catherine just did on both sides of this, but in the context of the trial, what will the jury find as most believable, Beyond A Reasonable Doubt . You can certainly almost always make an argument on both sides of any question. The question is can you make a credible argument on both sides . Youre playing one audiotape. And it is important. But it is not going to be by itself determinative, chris. It will be important to corroborate what cohen says, it will be important to corroborate what pecker says, and it may corroborate what other people say. By the way, if i may, youre 100 right, you never say anything in opening as a prosecutor that you cant prove. But there is no burden of proof, ever, at any point, on a defense attorney. So proof is different than the expectation you set for the jury, isnt it . Yes. But Defense Attorneys get a little more leeway in their openings because at the end of the day, they can just say stuff, whether or not they can actually prove it doesnt matter because they dont have to. Now, you want to win a case, right . If you want to actually rebut what the prosecution has offered, you can call witnesses and you can put your defendant on the stand, you can do all those things. But they dont have to. It is really incumbent on the government to prove what they say in opening. It does appear, just as im reading what is happening now, that donald trump may be listening to his lawyer and by that, we presume that his lawyer has said to him what most lawyers would say to a defendant in this case or any other case, dont make any kind of reaction to the jury that may allow them to make a judgment one way or another. So, they have started talking about this third case that you mentioned. Karen catherine, it is not Karen Mcdougal, not Stormy Daniels, but this allegation by a doorman at the trump tower, later found to be completely untrue that donald trump had fathered a child out of wedlock. And david pecker said, dino, they call him dino the doorman, was in the Market Selling a story that donald trump fathered an illegitimate girl with a maid. Better that perhaps than reacting in some way to, again, another salacious allegation or something that at the time could have threatened his run for president. True or not, youre right. What do you make of the fact that trump is keeping calm . For now . Important for now. He should be. It is okay to, like, you know, be upset if a witness testifies and if youre, like, youre a defendant, im innocent and thats not true. But that hes just calm, closing his eyes, i dont think hes sleeping, people said hes asleep, thats fine. You just want him to sit there and be quiet. Where does this go from here . We only got lets see about 45 more minutes before they got to call it a day. Right, well, there are go to be a lot of witnesses yet to come. I dont know when they finish with mr. Pecker. This i would assume would go to 2 00 local time. And thursday when trial resumes. What has he not established that they want him to establish . What i want to say, chris, this is not a race. You dont have to finish faster than some other trial. The government has to put in its case in its entirety, they have the burden of proof. What do you have to establish, great question. You have to establish the elements of the offense. You have to prove each element Beyond A Reasonable Doubt. That includes intent. Not just that the records were false, but they were intentionally false. Thats different. And so whether it is through mr. Pecker and 30 others or mr. Pecker and 45 others, the government ought not really care. They should take their time and get their case in because by the way, you dont get to do it again if you lose. Is more better . More people saying the same thing . Well, for a case like this, yes. At the end, theyll tie each one together. Theyll connect the dots. This is a bit of an overstatement, catherine, i used to say there is no such thing as too much evidence. Yes. So such thing as overtrying your case. Catherine christian, chuck rosenberg, youll stay with me. In 60 seconds, a fiery back and forth over whether or not trump violated his gag order. So how will judge merchan rule and what does it mean for the case Going Forward . And what does it mean for the case Going Forward oid eye disea, or ted, which may need a different doctor. Find a ted Eye Specialist at isitted. Com. Its time to feed the dogs real food, not highly processed pellets. The