Is a wonderful man. Hed oftentimes have a friend for dinner. Remember the last scene . Excuse me, im about to have a friend for dinner, as the poor doctor walked by. Hannibal lector, congratulations. The late, great Hannibal Lecter. Yeah. Donald trump in new jersey, of all places, praising a fictional Serial Killer. That was good. This is exactly, mika, this is why the Biden Campaign desperately wants to see more bizarre moments like this during trumps rallies. I promise you, theyre more upset donald trump is in trial right now than donald trump, because they know when he goes out on the road, people see, the guy is just not there. He is celebrating a fictional character there who one of the most grotesque, horrifying people of movie history. Yeah. By the way, if youre going to a rally like that, why are you cheering that on . What can you be thinking at that rally other than, this doesnt make sense . That is my point. This is why i disagree with the concern he is in court rather than on the Campaign Trail. I think when he is on the Campaign Trail, it is like a cult. Theyll agree with anything. Less is more in my opinion. Seeing him in court is seeing him actually having to be accountable. Different opinions. Thats what were about here. The former president will be back in court today in Lower Manhattan, where he will be facetoface with his former fixer and attorney who is expected to take the stand in the criminal Hush Money Trial. Well get expert legal analysis ahead of Michael Cohens testimony. Well have full analysis and play by play all day today on Mississippi N msnbc. Also ahead, the protests during College Commencement ceremonies across the country, including the students who walked out during Jerry Seinfelds speech at duke. Good morning. Welcome to morning joe. It is monday, may 13th. With us, we have the host of way too early, White House Bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire. U. S. Special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. President emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass. U. S. National editor at the financial times, ed luce. Joe, a lovely mothers day weekend. Tell me about it. How did yours go . Oh, mine was wonderful. My girls came to me. They gave me an ice cream machine. The ninja creamy. We made ice cream for four nights straight, like every different flavor you could imagine. Thats all we did, and it was absolutely precious. How about yours . By the way, the post about your mom, wow. You know, its so interesting. Everybody loves to talk about their mom. Oh, she was so sweet and the most loving, and she was an angel. Maryjo. As you know, maryjo loved joey. She loved me so much. Some people would say, like, i was the apple of her eye after she got over having me. She wasnt really pleased to have a third child, but she eventually did. She was there every step of the way and was the biggest supporter. But, you know, there was another side of my mom that people dont talk about. I know this sounds weird. This is only, like, 20, 30 seconds, but i saw ed sheeran on Howard Sterns show last year, and it explains the success of my mom in being a mom. Here is howard stern talking to ed sheeran. You learn nothing from success, nothing. You learn everything from the failures. This is the thing that annoys me about the state that the world is in at the moment. No one talks about failure anymore. Its like shame. Like, failure is shame, like, lets bury that and not talk about it. No one goes, what did we learn from this . With success, everyone shouts about it. There is nothing in success. Success happens from failing hundreds of times. So the reason that reminds me of my mom is one of i think one of her best moments, you know, i played baseball. Allstar, had a high average, all this stuff, bases loaded, key game, and i struck out. Threw my bat down, walked to the car. I was so angry. I got in the backseat, and i said, i said, im just going to quit. My mom, you know, drives off. She quietly says, well, if you cant do any better than that, joey, youd be doing yourself and the family a Great Service by never playing baseball again. Oh, ouch. Right . So i sit back, and im like, what . Thats not what a mom is supposed to say. Guess what . It made me go out and practice harder. It was unconditional love. She knew you. Man, she was tough. She was a tough mother, and she never like, no time for sympathy for, you know, if we messed up. She let us know. That combination of love and toughness, i think, it makes all the difference. By the way, we forgot to ask katty kay about her mothers day. How was your mothers day . Oh, it was very nice. I only had one of my kids with me, but, remarkably, all of my children remembered, though theyre in other countries around the world. I did hear from all of them. I had a mother who was a bit like yours. She was not very sentimental. She very much had her own life and her own career. She was absolutely there and loved us, but she kind of expected us to get on with it. I mean, maybe parenting has changed, joe, in the last 40, 50 years. In our family, it was definitely not a trophy for everybody, even if you came in last. No. You tried hard. No you were not a winner all the time. It was a different world. Yeah. When we lost, my mom let us know. Like, i lost a basketball game. I remember, again, backseat, you know, and i was scoring, like, 30, 35 points a game. We still lost, and my mother turns to my dad in the front seat, so her three children can hear it in the back. She goes, you know, it would have been so great if god would have given us at least one natural athlete. Aw, come on. Who says that . No so, what happens, we get home, i get the Basketball Out, and im shooting for, like, the next two hours. This is parenting. I mean, its not just hugging people and being you know, mika, the snowplow parents, where we want to do everything for our kids and dont want our kids to ever feel discomfort. No, thats not what being a good parent is about. You need to sit in it. Thats not my experience with parenting, no. Joe, your beautiful post about your mom actually got alex in trouble with his mom, so, you know, i love the post, but now alexs mom is mad. Alex, want to tell us about that . Maybe you want to Say Something about your mom . Well, i get a text from my mom. Heres your moment, alex. I get a text from my mom. She sent me joes instagram post. She says, how come you dont post things like this about me . I said, well, joes mom has passed. She said, well, why do you wait until im dead . Do it now. Jewish mother on mothers day. I appreciate mom. I love her. And i will post something. I never post anything online, but maybe the first will be for her. For your mother. Saying it on morning joe is pretty good, too, alex. Thats right. When you only want to send your best. All right. There you go. Mothers day. It is a wonderful day for so many people. Happy belated mothers day to all. Absolutely. Well get to the news now. The United Nations says more than 300,000 people have now fled the Southern Gaza city of rafah. The announcement came just hours after the Israeli Government issued a new Evacuation Order, raising fears troops may soon invade the area. Last monday, the idf seized control of the gaza side of the rafah border crossing. Since then, there has been intense fighting in the area. Dozens of people have also been killed in air strikes. The New York Times reports the top leader of hamas is not hiding in rafah. Some report he hasnt left kahn yunis, farther north. It is believed he is using hostages as human shields. Intelligence agencies agree with this american assessment. Secretary of state Antony Blinken spoke about americas concerns over israels operation in rafah during an interview with nbcs Meet The Press yesterday. He was also pressed on President Bidens threat to withhold weapons. Take a listen. What weve seen over the last few months is a deep concern on our part about the possibility of a Major Military operation in rafah. Given the damage it would do to civilians, there are more than 1. 4 million gazans in rafah, most of whom have moved from other parts of gaza. Incredible plan to get them out of way and support them, the president has been clear, we wont support a Military Operation in rafah. I hear you say you havent seen a credible plan for how israel would go into rafah and mitigate civilian casualties. Is it fair to say that President Biden and Prime Minister netanyahu are not seeing eye to eye right now . Two things. One is that, as the president said and as we said in many conversations over the last couple of months, there has to be a credible plan for the civilians. Have you seen a credible plan . We have not. I want to drill down with you on President Bidens threat to withhold weapons. What exactly is his red line, mr. Secretary . What would trigger him to say, i am now withholding weapons . Look, we dont talk about red lines when it comes to israel. We talk, again President Biden did talk about a red line, though, mr. Secretary, respectfully. Let me be yeah, let me be clear. What would trigger him to make that decision . Sure. So, first, we have been holding back and are in active conversations with israel about the provision of heavy or highpayload weapons, large bombs, because of the concern we have about the effect these weapons can have when theyre used in a dense urban environment like rafah. Were discussing that with israel right now. Second, what the president said is that if israel goes in with a Major Military operation in rafah, in that case, there are certain systems we will not provide to israel that would aid in that effort. It is something we do not want to be part of, given the damage it would do to civilians. Again, not to achieve a durable, lasting, effective result for israel and its security. All right. Richard haass, you just returned from a trip from The Middle East where you had a chance to speak to leaders in off the record conversations. What is your great takeaway on your visit, your talks, and where the United States and israel are right now in what seems to be the final stage of this war . Good morning, joe. Let me give you two takeaways. One is when you go through the arab world, it is hard not to be struck, how the arab leaders are ready to get close to israel. They got up in the morning. What are they worried about . Theyre worried about iran, the various offshoots, hezbollah, houthis, hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and other groups, and, honestly, theyve lost confidence in the United States over the last few administrations. They want to get close to israel. What they need, though, is enough from israel on the palestinian issue that they can manage this getting close domestically, which brings me to israel. In my meetings there, what youre seeing here is essentially what is happening totally. The israelis have prioritized very clearly pursuing the war, Prosecuting The War over getting back the hostages. That, to me, is plain as day. Theyre going into rafah. The only thing we dont know, joe, is exactly the dimensions of it. Theyre angry at the United States. I think theyre surprised that the United States took the step that President Biden did the other day. You know, i simply dont see any plan out of israel for what happens after rafah. Thats my biggest takeaway. Theyll go in, kill some more hamas fighters. Unfortunately, some more civilians will get killed. But what then . Theres no answer to that in israel. What prevents there from being an answer, and what were probably looking at is a prolonged Israeli Occupation and some real messy situation in gaza, is the politics wont allow this Israeli Government or this Prime Minister wont move in the direction of offering something up to and working with the palestinians. I think were going to have rafah and, in a month, some of the fundamental questions that have been out there for seven, eight months now are going to be out there plain as day. Well, and, ed luce, richard underlined something ive been hearing from leaders out of The Middle East for some time. That is, were ready to help. This is going back months. We want to help the israelis. We want to help with gaza. We can talk about a peacekeeping force. We can rebuild gaza. They want hamas out of there. Said theyd do it, oddly enough, if the United States was there Standing Shoulder to shoulder with them. Providing them support. Again, we could just talk generally and not tell people whats actually going on here, but it is whats been going on for the past 10, 15 years. Netanyahu doesnt want that. Netanyahu doesnt want a twostate solution. Netanyahu wants to resettle israelis in gaza, or he wants gaza to be completely under the control of israel. He doesnt want peace there. He doesnt want gaza rebuilt. He doesnt want a strong independent gaza with arab nations acting as peacekeepers to protect them. Saudi normalization, which is the Biden Administrations goal, would be a great win for israel, to have saudi arabia recognize israel finally after all these decades, but the price of that normalization would be precisely what netanyahu would have to be dragged kicking and screaming to do. Namely, creating a viable Palestinian Authority to replace hamas, building up a nonviolent palestinian voice that can help govern a postwar gaza, as well as the west bank, which is governing. Unfortunately, though, Netanyahus Coalition, the right of his coalition, bengvir, who, as you know, tweeted last week, Biden Loves Hamas when biden announced the pause of those weapons shipments, that coalition would consider any viable palestinian dialogue to be a betrayal of their values. Theyd pull the plug, and there would be an election and netanyahu would probably go straight to jail. He has a conflict of interest. He does not want this war to end. He doesnt want to alienate the Coalition Members that are keeping him in power and out of the courtroom. Richard, lets talk about what the american response can be here. We just heard Secretary Of State say there are no red lines compared to israel. The president did use the Phrase Red Line a few days prior, though, when he said theyd not be giving offensive operations, even as the administration continues to send defensive weapons and the like. Israel has enough weapons to go into rafah. They dont need more from the u. S. Beyond that rhetoric and making that decision, is there anything else this administration can do to try to shape what the next couple weeks would look like for netanyahu, rafah, and beyond . Next couple weeks are going to be almost impossible to shape. Israelis will do what theyre going to do. Even if we were to hold back on ammunition or weapons systems, my guess is the israelis will go ahead. The one thing we can shape, i think, is what comes after. Thats why ive been arguing a long time the president needs to give a fullydeveloped speech about where he wants the israelipalestinian conflict to go. This government in israel, as correctly pointed out, doesnt want to open that. For them, it threatens the coalition. I believe we have to do that. That is now up to the United States. We have got to essentially express sympathy for october 7th. Weve distanced ourself for much of what israel has done beginning october 8th. Now, what is our vision for the governance of gaza, the palestinian issue . Here is what were expecting from palestinians, from the arab governments, and, by the way, here is what we are expecting from israel to do and avoid doing. Heres what we, the United States, are prepared to do to make it a success. Katty, the Biden Administration are obviously getting it from all sides, as you do whenever youre dealing with The Middle East. Joe biden being called genocide joe by radicals across the country. Then, on The Other Side, you cant pick up the Washington PostNew York Post or the protrump newspaper that doesnt say hes abandoned the jews forever. Its as if those attacking him for actually putting some conditions on rafah have forgotten that eisenhower did it during the suez crisis famously. Nixon did it in 73 after israel had been attacked by arab faye neighbors. Stopped israel from destroying the arab neighbors. George h. W. Bushs administration constantly pushing back against illegal settlements. Weve never written a blank check to israel. In 81, reagan, after the israelis bombed Iraqi Nuclear facilities, reagan pulled back and refused to transfer fighter jets that we had already promised them