Good evening from new york, im chris hayes. After five weeks, the first criminal trial of a former u. S. President is nearly over. The defense rested, this morning, it called only two witnesses. Despite all his bravado and insistence to the contrary, yeah, donald trump was not one of them. We knew that, right . Instead, we heard briefly from a paralegal, attorney Todd Blanches from about phone records, for a man by the name of Robert Castella took the stand. Costello is a former federal prosecutor, a very close associate of Rudy Giuliani, the twice indicted former mayor of new york city. More about him later in the show. And, also, Donald Trumps personal attorney while he was in the white house. I think it is fair to say that costellos testimony, this week, backfired on the defense. How much remains to be determined. But, trumps attorneys main reason to put that man, Robert Costello understand, was to directly contradict and impugn the credibility of the prosecution three witness key witness, Michael Cohen. And i got to say, it turns out Robert Costello might be the only person in the country who can make Michael Cohen seem eventempered by comparison. Costello acted like what could best be described as a petulant teenager, rolling his eyes and muttering under his breath, at one point saying to strike something, but that is not his job, it is the judge. After crossing the judge, like he tried to stare him down at which point the judge said, are you staring me down . And cleared the courtroom. After clearing the courtroom, the judge called costellos conduct, quote, contemptuous, in the more technical narrow sense of contempt of court, and threatened to remove him from the stand and strike his testimony from the record. That man, costello. Again, the big star witness from the defense, the one person they are putting on returns to the stand today for crossexamination. Now, remember, at the center of costellos testimony, is a 2018 meeting he had with kevin. That is after cohen had a Search Warrant executed by the fbi. As kellan tells it, he is having this back and forth with costello, putting a very High Pressure sales job on him. The implication of which was that they had to kind of keep cohen in trumps circle to prevent him from flipping beginner, costello was aligned with rudy, he was aligned with trump, so hire me and itll stay in the circle. Now, costello says he was just there to offer legal services. That is the main sort of battle here over what happened, and today, prosecutor Susan Hollinger said quote, you discussed how connected you were to Rudy Giuliani, correct . And costello responded, that is not true. Hollinger then read costello an Email Costello wrote to cohen two days after the meeting which stated, and i could come here, i am sure you saw the news of rudy joining the trump legal team. I told you my relationship with rudy could be very useful to you. Costellos words. The prosecutor also read an email, he writes to a legal partner the same day, quote come all the more reason for him to hire me, because of my connection to giuliani, which i mentioned to him in our meeting. So again, you mentioned giuliani in the first meeting. No. Under oath. There are two emails here in which you are like, i mentioned giuliani. Okay. And for the coming occasions, it is clear that costello continued to dangle his relationship with giuliani, and by extension, donald trump, over cohens head. In another email, quote, i spoke with rudy, very positive, who i love, which i will say is sweet. Adding, quote, there is never a doubt they are in our corner. Rudy says this Medication Channel must be maintained,. He said tonight, we have friends in high places. Ps, some positive comments about you from the white house. Now, you might be thinking that the invocation of giuliani and trump repeatedly by this man does not definitively prove costellos intentions, but in a stunning example of something you really dont want to put into writing, prosecutors today read another email, again from costello, to that same legal partner, quote, our issue is to get coman on the right page without giving him the appearance we are following instructions from giuliani to the president. And when you put it like that, it sure sounds like he was following instructions from giuliani and the president , doesnt it . The Defense Final act, there one big witness, did not, i think, to a great job exonerating the client or even locking down the credibility of the man he was supposed to knock down, Michael Cohen. I have to say, i am following this trail very closely. Not as closely as some of our next guests who were in the courtroom, but i find Michael Cohen on the core matters of fact that are relevant to the charges, believable. That is in large part, due to the extensive documentation provided by all kinds of people including Robert Costello himself. Not to mention, the lengthy paper trail outlining each step of the scheme to repay cohen for the hush money he paid to Stormy Daniels to cover up the sexual encounter she had with donald trump that the attempts to hide those reimbursements billed as legal payments, the basic contours of that, was a Stormy Daniel paid . Did cohen pay for it . Was he reimbursed . All of that is not really in dispute. A week from now, when Closing Arguments start, this will be in the hands of the jury, and they will ultimately decide the former president s fate. Joining me now are two people inside the courthouse today. Legal correspondent lisa rubin, and New York TimesInvestigators Reporter susan kravitz, to have you here. I missed the costello fireworks yesterday. I was following it, i was even texting, like, is this is as insane as it sounds . So, the costello experience in that courtroom . Youre not going to sell me out by reading my response . The costello experience in the courtroom is a really good instructive lesson on how demeanor matters. Because, you can say all sorts of things about misdeeds and as long as you remain polite and contrite, and so synced, jurors might believe you. Michael cohen is an illustration of that. What was so bizarre is that the Robert Costello that we saw over the last couple of days reminded me of the Michael Cohen that we saw at the civil fraud trial. That was exactly the fear of everyone around the prosecutors office. Correct. Even to the point that in the same way that costello said, strike that, or, the email speaks for itself, which is also something lawyers say in defense of clients, for example. Michael cohen, at that fraud trial would say, asked and answered very bombastic we. The Role Reversal was very telling. I want to read you, chris, another email that came out today toward the end, because it is maybe the worst example of how costello is just seeking to advance Donald Trumps interest and not michael collins. At one point, he writes to his partner, jeff, the person who had a relationship with cohen, and said, tune into cnn and see how they are playing this up. Cohen has to know this, yet he continues to slow playoffs and the president. Is he totally nuts . What should i say to this blank, he is playing with the most powerful man on the planet. And by that, costello, despite his high opinion of himself did not mean him, right . He meant donald trump. Can we put that full screen . What should i say to this blank . He is playing with the most powerful men on the planet. So, right. The story cohen is telling is, you are donald trump subdued and i am there and then he is writing this. What did you think of the cross . I want to give some props to the Sketch Artist in court, who caught that moment. We just had it up. The stare down where the judge is like whoa. Its good, you are right. Shout out to jane rosenberg. Definitely. So, what did i think of the Cross Examination today, when the government got back up . I thought it was incredible. I mean, just how she dissected him, in the amount of time, and got right to those emails, and i think laid bare that he was an agent of giuliani and donald trump, and no wonder Michael Cohen you know, the whole premise of having costello up there was to discredit cohen, because costello could come and say, well, he never admitted that he made these payments to me. And Michael Cohen has said, i was always suspicious of the sky. , no wonder. I was going to say, know something sherlock. There is one piece of Destiny Castillo gives where he says cohen told him i dont have anything, and in some ways that is relevant, i can see that the defense wants to get that in. We talked to this guy and he says i got nothing. So, you want to plant the seeds that he invented it later. Right . But, given the broader tools contours, there are two stories about this interaction and the cohen story, to my mind, the testimony that i saw in that room when i was there, and from the emails, the cohen story seems to match the other evidence much better than the costello story does. Right . Is that fair . Absolutely correct. There is also another Program Problem with costellos story. In order to credit costellos story that Michael Cohen lied, you have to believe that he was telling the truth to costello at some point in time, which means, Michael Cohen tells the truth at some point in time. Right . So, it is sort of facially ridiculous, at some point, for bob costello to say, Michael Cohen is a liar because his testimony is premised on Michael Cohen telling him the truth one time. Michael cohen is a liar and a cheat, but this case will come down to the jury believing, at least at some point, he can tell the truth. It is not like he always lives. Correct. They have to believe him on certain points and that is something that the government will say they have corroboration for. They have interviews, but have conversations, where they have documents, because Michael Cohen for the criminal documents, he is the through line, there has to be some believability on those meetings that he has spoken to. We have that Incredible Ellen Weissleberg document where everything is sort of cooked and here is how the payments are going to work. And then, ellen weissleberg, and Michael Cohen then go to speak to donald trump about it. We have not heard from ellen weissleberg. He is over at rikers, so we have Michael Cohens word on that conversation with donald trump, where he signed off on it. It is very important, and they just have to believe him on stuff for there is actually evidence, we just put it up on the screen. Yeah. Another thing about the costello thing. Two things. One is a tactical choice. Right . The idea is that the defense is trying to say, you havent met your standards. It happens fairly often. They should have done that. We dont even have to put someone on, because this case is insufficient. When you start to go down the road, lico, we got the sky. We are going to catch Michael Cohen lying. And then, it is like parts of the cross on Michael Cohen felt pretty effective to me, that is now not the last thing in your mind about Michael Cohens credibility, it is now costello. There are other parts of the cross of Michael Cohen that never touched on the key meetings that sue was talking about, the meeting between trump and ellen weissleberg, and cohen where they walked down the hall and trump approves it. The other one being the Oval Office Meeting in february 17 where trump and cohen summoned the Repayment Agreement and trump basically says to him, you are going to get your january and february checks soon. Not one word about either of those meetings during the very lengthy, sometimes meandering, sometimes effective cross of Michael Cohen. I think your point about, if they had just said, look, they have met the standard, and then they put on a defense and this is the best you have . Again, i dont know Robert Costello but i think is a great guy. Good point. Always good to talk to you. Thank you. Lisa, stick around for one more block because i want to ask you about the legal machinations going on, around what the jurors will be considering next week, which might be as important as any testimony we have seen, that is next. Next. N with nonsteroidal antiinflammatory medicine directly at the source. Voltaren, the joy of movement. What is cirkul . Cirkul is what you hope for when life tosses lemons your way. Cirkul is your frosted treat with a sweet kick of confidence. Cirkul is the Effortless Energy that gets you in the zone. Cirkul, available at walmart and drinkcirkul. Com. Once both sides rested in the trial, both sides were dismissed and a crucial hearing started about Jury Instructions. A set of guidelines the judge reads to the jurors on what the threshold is for them to find trump guilty or not. Now, on the matter of sufficient Business Records, invoices to Michael Cohen, for a Fictitious Retainer Agreement , and then checks cuts to pay those invoices, many with trumps signature on them and benefits a, you know, retainer for legal fees. And they falsely falsely record this payment of legal expenses, they are there in Black And White. That happened and we know that. Cohen testified there were false and there is a lot of evidence to back them up. These were not legal payments. , so you just did that. Right . Misdemeanor falsification of Business Records. Now, the trickier part will be the intent and what it was. Because remember, donald trump is facing felony counts, since that falsification, which is there in Black And White and i dont think is particularly well contested, was according to prosecutors in furtherance of another crime, violating Campaign Finance law. So, what will a jury be told about how they should establish trumps intent, there, the furtherance of the crime part . What standard of proof will they have to apply . How will they be told to apply the law to testimony and evidence presented to them on that score . I dont think its an overstatement to say this case could be won or lost on those instructions. Back with me, Legal Correspondent lisa rubin, he has been on both sides of this situation, we start with the lisa in the hearing today, do you agree with that characterization about the weight of the instructions . I agree with the characterization of the weight, i disagree with you about what will be easy and difficult about this. In order to find that trump is guilty of felony false vacation of Business Records, the jurors have to find that either he made the false Business Records himself or that he caused somebody else to make them. The meaning of the word cause is something on which this case hinges and that is because the prosecutors want a definition of cause that is really expensive. It is basically like, if based on your conduct you could reasonably foresee that Business Records would be falsified, you have caused there falsification. That is the instruction they wanted today and that is the instruction that juan marshan in todays hearing indicated he is not likely to give. The question then is, what is cause going to mean and how will it be defined for these jurors . If cause means literally, i directed charles, here is how you are going to set up this general business ledger, that is not evidence that is in this case right now. That doesnt allow anything. Because of how he conducts business, correct. I think that while these Business Records were false, to establish that trump falsified them but you think cause is a big thing . Huge. Its huge because of the testimony that we have not heard in terms of someone exquisitely saying that donald trump instructed me, or directed me to do these things, which is why Michael Cohens testimony ultimately was so important. Getting back to Jury Instructions, chris, this is where the prosecution should be very nervous. I say that, because the more complicated these Jury Instructions are, the more difficult it is to get 12 jurors to unanimously convict, beyond a reasonable doubt. And that is what they have to do. I think if you are the defense, you are concerned about them, but for the prosecution, this is really where your case falls apart if it does. I have been trying to think about how do i understand this, if i am a juror. I unde