Good evening. Good evening. And good evening. The candidates need no introduction. Are you ready? ready. A new race with a new democratic candidate. Mr. Vice president, i'm speaking. And a familiar republican opponent. Do i still have to stick to policy? a vice president running to chart a new course. It doesn't have to be this way. Against an expresident with a criminal record. I have been indicted more than capone. With more issues facing the american people, reproductive rights, the economy, immigration, foreign policy, and the future of democracy itself. We are not going back. Tonight, full team coverage with rachel maddow, nicolle wallace, joy reid, chris hayes, lawrence o'donnell, ari melber, stephanie ruhle, jen psaki, symone sanders townsend, plus, steve kornacki on the road to 270. Alex wagner at the debate in philadelphia. New jersey senator cory booker, california governor gavin newsom, and pennsylvania governor josh shapiro. Msnbc's special coverage of the presidential debate between kamala harris and donald trump begins now. And here we go. Thank you for joining us for our coverage of the first debate between vice president kamala harris and former president donald trump. It is being held tonight in philadelphia, at the national constitution center on beautiful and historic arch street in downtown philly. None of us has a crystal ball, and anything is possible, but as of now, this is the one and only scheduled debate between harris and trump. This is a presidential race that the polls say is tighter than just about any election at this point in modern history. And unless there is a second debate, this event tonight will almost certainly be the largest audience either candidate will have the chance to speak to before the november election. It was only about two months ago that we had what turned out to be the most consequential presidential debate ever. It led to the remarkable decision by the sitting president of the united states to drop his bid for reelection in favor of his vice president. A historic and still frankly gobsmacking decision by a president who really is beloved by his party, but whose decision to step down in favor of vice president kamala harris was viewed positively by nearly 90% of all americans. On what else do nearly 90% of americans agree? particularly when it is something about politics. When vice president kamala harris takes the stage tonight, she'll be facing an opponent who is a convicted felon, he is currently awaiting sentencing on 34 felony counts. He's facing numerous other pending criminal charges. He's an opponent who tried to stay in power through insurrectionist violence when he lost his last election. An opponent who said this weekend that if he regains power there will be, quote, longterm prison sentences for his political enemies including in his words, quote, lawyers, political operatives, donors, illegal voters, and corrupt election officials. An opponent who is promising the mass deportation of millions of people, something he says will be a, quote, bloody story. Vice president harris brings her own set of unprecedented variables to tonight's debate. This will be the first presidential debate featuring a candidate who was nominated separate and apart from the primary process, just three months before the election. A presidential debate likely to be watched by literally tens of millions of americans, including many according to the polls, who say they want to know more about kamala harris, even though she is the sitting vice president of the united states. Tonight's debate will be donald trump's seventh presidential debate. It will be kamala harris' first presidential debate. And her first debate of any kind in four years. It's also likely the best chance either of these candidates will get to bend, to try to bend this incredibly close, incredibly high stakes contest in their own favor. No pressure. I'm rachel maddow here at msnbc headquarters in new york. I'm joined by my equally overcaffeinated stressed out colleagues joy reid and jen psaki and chris hayes and stephanie ruhle. Alex wagner will be joining us from the debate spin room in philadelphia which is both an awesome job and also a terrible one. Our friend steve kornacki is here, he'll be joining us shortly. Joy, let me start with you. I mean, how are you doing? how are you feeling about this? what do you think the stakes are? caffeinated was accurate. I had a lot of coffee today with espresso in it. I think it is an interesting moment for vice president harris. Most people don't generally know much about vice presidents so it's not like she's in this unique position of being relatively unknown. I thing for the vice president, her only job tonight is to make people who are not yet decided comfortable with the idea of her as president. I think that's really all she has to do. She doesn't need to do a knockout blow, anything extraordinary. She just needs to make the small percentage of biden voters who aren't there yet feel like okay, i'm good with her, and the small number of undecideds decide she doesn't seem too radical, too whatever, whatever it is that is stopping them from closing the deal, i think that's her job, because donald trump has a ceiling. And i don't see anything that he could possibly do whilst tweeting out cat memes and threats and weird stuff from truth social to add to his number. She just needs to close that gap and that's all her job is tonight. Steph, do you think that's right, there's nothing trump can do tonight to change the ceiling he's got to make people who are against him turn toward him? he has hit his ceiling, but for her, besides introducing herself, familiarizing the american people with who kamala harris is, she can also make it clear, this man has great tag lines and no policy. The two things he's been saying for the last two years are mass deportations and tariffs. And there are people across this country, many people who don't like politics who are upset about the cost of living, who are upset about inflation, but this idea that he says at rallies, made in the usa, other countries, we're charging you, people need to understand this will be devastating to our economy. Traditionally, republicans have this brand that they're good for the economy. Joe biden and kamala harris have presided over a very strong and complicated economy. This is her opportunity tonight to explain that and say we're going to make things better, but this guy has not only nothing to offer you, what he's offering is significantly worse. On the tariffs issue, and lawrence o'donnell has been talking about this a lot on his show and posting online about it. He's made the case that trump should be asked followup questions designed to elicit whether he actually understands what a tariff is. That would be a good question. The way he's talking about them, it's as if they're a free source of money that costs america nothing that makes other countries pay for our stuff. It's almost the opposite. A no information voter will absolutely buy into that and say you're damn right, and it makes no sense, so she needs to be asked that question because not only is there no explanation for it, if you're worried about inflation, having blanket tariffs across the board will be devastating. The last time we saw donald trump do this, with china, it put the american farmer in a desperate hole that then required a huge farm aid package. Billions and billions of domestic emergency aid to make up for the economic harm that he caused the last time he tried this in a smaller way. He must be asked about this tonight because pocketbook issues, the economy, is a number one issue for scores of americans. Jen. Maybe in the minority in this, i hope he's asked that question. I hope she does not proactively utter the word tariffs out of her mouth. I actually think, the thing i have been thinking about all day, she's a prepper, a studier. This is a thing we all admire, we're all nerds at this table. She's never met him before, never debated him before. He's a circus performer, she is not. It's a very different kind of skill set and muscle than i think she has even used in past debates. He's not mike pence. So for me, what i think is most important for her is to be in the moment and come back to the home of i'm fighting for you at home. And he is fighting for himself. And that to me is the message frame. If tariffs is a debate, great, but i don't think she should proactively be reiterating like a 12point plan on the economy. I think it's about reminding people who she's fighting for. I feel like some of the strategy discussion about the debate and some of the free advice is policy or no policy, as if it doesn't matter what the policy discussion is. The point is you need to get people at home to trust you, to understand what you're saying, and to think you're a better choice. Tariffs, i get it, she shouldn't talk about them, but tax cuts, the only people he's offering tax cuts to are the same he did last time around. Corporations and the wealthiest americans. And that should be made clear tonight. Which is also very popular. I mean, very popular, her position. Her position is, to your point. Nobody wants the highest income to not pay more taxes. Most people don't. 97% of people don't. I'm in the home frame of what people are feeling and their vibes at home. If they feel like she is thinking about them and he's talking about his weird tariffs plan. I think the main tactical question x i don't think it's an easy one, it's a difficult one, joy, i'm with you. How much you engage him, honestly. How much do you this guy is going to say crazy stuff. He's going to ramble, say nasty things, lie about you. He's going to cast aspersions. How much is the energy going here and how much is the energy going there? that is a very, very difficult tactical question because he will say things like, you know, lie about things that immigrants have done. Well, are you going to let that hang there? so at every moment making that tactical decision, he's a hard guy to debate for that reason. I come down in the same place i think we're all in in some ways. This is the most important lane for her talking to people at home. Talking to the camera and people at home. I'm kamala harris, i'm going to cut your taxes, he wants to raise them. I want to go forward, he wants to go back. I'm looking out for you and thinking about what we can do for you. He's looking out for himself. They have set that message frame pretty well. This is an opportunity for people to hear it from her, and it's very hard to not get lured in to the debate. The last thing i'll say is the one other thing is it is actually easy to get him to swim upstream. So swimming upstream i think about because we do this for a living. Someone says something 45 seconds ago, and am i going to swim upstream to talk about the thing 45 seconds ago or keep going? trump can't let certain things go. We saw it in the first debate. This went unnoticed because of biden's performance. He kept coming back to suckers and losers, to the point it was like, what are you going to do about climate? can i go back to the suckers and losers? like, so there are certain things you can bait him into obsessing over, whether he won the 2020 election, for instance. The suckers and losers thing, which is a sore point. Criminal convictions. I think all those things there are ways to deploy those as kind of land mines he's going to come back to. Because he can't let them go because he has no discipline around those things. Our friend alex wagner is in the spin room near the debate site in philadelphia tonight. As i just mentioned, you have both an excellent and terrible job tonight. Can you tell us what it's like, what you're expecting tonight, and what the physical environment has been like thus far? well, i am personally so overcaffeinated that i can hear a light ringing in my ear. Maybe going to be useful tonight. It's a massive spin room, like one of the biggest spin rooms i have ever been in. I don't know how that's going to play when it comes time for both campaigns to tell the press they won, they both won. I was talking with some senior members of the harris campaign, and maybe this will reassure jen, but vice president harris did not do any debate prep today. She spent the day relaxing. Her husband is in the area. We can assume that they are just chilling, for lack of a better term. They feel confident. They did admit that they believe she needs this, a big win tonight, maybe more than trump does. And they also acknowledged that, you know, the bar is just a lot higher for a woman and a woman of color on a stage like this at a moment like this. So i think that there's kind of quiet confidence but certainly not overconfidence about what might take place tonight. I think that, you know, i cosign everything that my fellow colleagues at the big table in new york are saying about the bar, the relative difference in terms of accountability for both of these candidates. I will just tell you in terms of quality of surrogate tonight, the harris campaign has three governors who are going to be out here spinning, three senators, four congress people, a gold star father, and what the campaign is calling a surprise guest. I don't think it's beyonce, so just get that out of your mind. You know, they have a solid roster. The trump campaign has matt gaetz, vivek ramaswamy, lara trump, michael whatley, the election denier and chair of the rnc, and jd vance. So it will be really interesting to see what planet both campaigns are living on after the debate tonight. And you know, the quality of the spin because listen, there's going to be the debate and then the public impression of what happens at the debate. Both of those are going to matter probably equally. One of the things i think we have all had in mind today thinking back to the trump versus hillary clinton debates in 2016, was trump and steve bannon pulling a stunt. Having a sort of it wasn't exactly a prank, but basically trying to pull off something between a prop and a stunt effect at the debate as a way of trying to get under hillary clinton's skin and rattle her campaign. It is the harris campaign that is promising a surprise guest in the spin room. Is there any other sign of any shenanigans or stunts either side is planning on playing? trumpian shenanigans, i have not seen any indicators of that. Nor have i heard any. So i can't give you more on potential trump appearance here, although as always, rachel, we're prepared for anything and everything, given what happened at the last debate. Who knows where this night ends? we will certainly be here if donald trump takes to the spin room, but as of right now, it's just the murderers row of vivek ramaswamy, lara trump, and michael whatley spinning in the former president's favor tonight. I mean, prepping for debates now, like now that it's the third donald trump election cycle, now that we have seen what happened in the debates and the stunts and all the other things i feel like you used to prepare for things the debaters might say. Now you have to prepare for like, is somebody going to bite the head off of a live bat? is somebody going to come out without their pants on? like, the realm of things that could happen is no longer zero to 100, it's zero to n, and who knows. But you'll be there physically, not us. If a bat loses its life, i will be here to tell you about it. Right on, alex. Also sorry. We'll be back with you, my friend. For more on the state of the race and what is at stake as we head into tonight's debate, we have been dying to do this segment. Steve kornacki, set it up for us. Tell us how high the cliff is that we are peering over the edge of. Let's take a look. Start here, this is our average of the national polling, the major national polls that are out there right now. Harris with a twopoint advantage over trump, 47/45, and this gets to one of the two major questions i'm looking at as this fall campaign unfolds and certainly as election night will eventually play out. It's this. Remember, in 2016, donald trump lost the national popular vote by 2. 1 votes to hillary clinton, but he won the presidency. In 2020, joe biden beat donald trump by 4. 5 points in the national popular vote, and trump nearly won the presidency. About 42,000 votes across three states would have kept trump in the oval office. A question for 2024 is, is there still going to be a republican advantage, a trump advantage in the electoral college relative to the popular vote? if there is, then this is a very, very uneasy advantage for democrats to have over donald trump coming out of labor day, just two points, because you can see what that has meant in the past. Or have things changed a little bit? one reason they might have changed a little bit, we have seen donald trump's appeal in polling broaden out demographically, he's made some inroads with nonwhite voters this time around, at least in polling, that he didn't have in 2020 and in 2016. Is that going to allow him to get more votes in places like california, new york, illinois? big blue states where he's not going to pick up electoral votes but it might tighten the national popular vote. That's one of the big questions is that republican advantage that trump advantage still there when it comes to the electoral college. Then let's look at that race for 270. The core seven battleground states, looking at our current polling averages in those states. This will get to the second big question that i'm kind of looking at here. You see right now, you do see some harris blue here, five of them just today, new polling out in north carolina has actually given harris one tenth of one point, the advantage for her in north carolina. You see trump right here, just very, very close. 1. 5, 0. 5, all this, except draw your attention to the lower right corner. You see wisconsin, harris with comparatively here 4. 3 points. This is significantly larger than you're seeing in the other ones. Again in the poll average. Remember, wisconsin 2020. There was a poll three weeks before election day in that state that had joe biden ahead by 17 points. He won it by a fraction of a point in the end. Just 20,000 votes. The biggest single polling miss in any key state in 2020 was in wisconsin. It was also a state where there was a huge miss in 2016 as well. One of the other big misses we saw in the 2020 polling was in michigan. Both states, democratic support significantly overestimated, trump support underestimated. We saw polling misses that were not evenly spread out in 2020 among all the battleground states. They were demographically, geographically specific, so that's the other question i think i'm looking at here. Are we seeing polling misses in those states again? trump voters undercounted in the northern battlegrounds. If they are again, any democratic advantage you're seeing in the polls come with a huge grain of salt, if the polling issue has been fixed, talking about something very different here maybe. Wow, so if we were just going to bottom line this, is it fair to say hey, look, it's a tie? i tell people i have it narrowed down to two. All right, steve. Thank you so much. We're just getting going tonight as the second presidential debate draws near, the first one involving vice president kamala harris and former president donald trump. Headtohead in philadelphia. We're going to hear from a former colleague and longtime friend of the vice president, senator cory booker is going to join us live next. Lots to get to. Stay with us. My dry eye symptoms got worse over time. My eye doctor explained the root was inflammation. Xiidra was made for that, so relief is lasting. Xiidra treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. Don't use if allergic to xiidra and seek medical help if needed. Common side effects include eye irritation, discomfort, blurred vision, and unusual taste sensation. Don't touch container tip to your eye or any surface. Before using xiidra, remove contact lenses and wait fifteen minutes before reinserting. Dry eye over and over? it's time for xiidra. We all need fiber for our digestive health, get enough each day. 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Experience how great splenda stevia can be. Grown on our farm, enjoyed at your table. (♪♪) so tonight will not only be the first debate between kamala harris and donald trump, it will also be the first time they have ever spoken to one another. The two candidates before now have never met each other. You might have thought that they would have met at the inauguration in january 2021. But of course, trump did not attend the inauguration of his successor because he was the first president in u. S. History to refuse to concede that he lost and peacefully leave office thereafter. So he didn't go to ininauguration. They didn't meet then. The only times they have ever even been in the same room as far as we know were during donald trump's state of the union addresses while he was president. State of the union addresses which kamala harris attended as a u. S. Senator. But as far as we know, that is it. We did just get a new piece of reporting, i know you have an interview to get to. Apparently, this is newly reported by nbc news. Vice president kamala harris has spoken recently and repeatedly with former secretary of state hillary clinton about debate strategy for tonight. Hillary clinton, of course, the only other woman to face donald trump in a oneonone debate, according to nbc news, clinton shared insights specifically about how trump may attempt to bait her and suggested that harris should instead try to turn that around on him. Provoking him directly. Yeah. According to multiple sources. It's interesting because donald trump has, as we all know, no respect for women. And i think he's doubly destabilized by this particular woman who he's gushed about as a beautiful woman. And so i am very curious to see how he reacts. We saw how disrespectful he was even looming over hillary clinton, yet she did win all those debates. I think objectively, most people believe she destroyed him in all three debates. It didn't matter in the end, but it will be interesting to see what the difference in strategy is will be, because i'm not sure how much he gets destabilized by her physical presence. We shall see. He's not a disastrous debater. Go back to the republican primary. He's a great insulter. Chris christie, jeb bush, they melted standing next to him. A good insulter, a good interrupter, a good bully. He's just going to gallop over the moderators and there's a muted microphone that will allow him to be sane washed on the spot, and then maybe afterwards we'll talk more about that later, but i want to bring right now in new jersey democratic senator cory booker. And he has firsthand experience on what it's like to debate vice president harris. And he's also a friend of hers. So senator booker, let's get right to that. That question of, hillary clinton has spoken with vice president harris and we know she's given some debate tips. Let's get some from you. You have debated vice president harris. How do you expect she will respond if, for instance, trump throws personal insults? well, the 2020 debate prep i had was led by a woman named karen dunn, who is now one of the leaders of kamala's debate prep. So that's what gets me really excited because i know what karen dunn is the best at, helping people be the best version of themselves. And that's what excites me because i sat next to kamala in many hearings where she sparred with donald trump's cabinet appointees and she's strong, confident, prepared. She has some fun. I think what americans are going to see tonight is the best version of who she is. And on top of that, they're going to see, i think, a guy that can't help but expose himself, who has no selfdiscipline, who is not going to be able to stay on the issues. And in many ways we already know all the voters know who he is. But there are still a lot of voters who tonight are going to get a chance to see kamala and learn more about her at her best. One of the things people know about her because she says it a lot on the campaign trail, she's a prosecutor. Ron brown steen has an interesting take on this, that cuts both ways. On the one hand, it helps hr make a case against trump, who is obviously a 34count convicted felon who is proud of that, but on the down side, you know, she is trying to make up ground that joe biden had built up with certain constituencies, including with african americans. She's scoring obviously much higher than he is with african americans, but not quite where biden was. Do you think that she needs to avail herself of the opportunity to expound more upon what it means for her to have been a prosecutor and also to kind of, you know, amplify the things donald trump would do with the criminal justice system unleashing the police, et cetera? yeah, i think that people are going to see her training, her skills and talents as somebody that spent a lot of her career as a prosecutor. But she's a woman of many sides. And when i first got to know senator kamala harris, i found her immediately to be deeply soulful. She had this incredible ability to relate to others who are in struggle. A daughter of two immigrants, this person who was different in many parts of her life. Who knows what it's like to struggle. So i think a lot of that soulfulness people often miss. A lot of the debating is not just parroting and sticking your points and exposing the weaknesses of a very weak candidate in my opinion, but it's also a chance for people to see the fullness of her character. And kamala is a person of great character. And i'm excited for people to get to know her and see that tonight as well. President biden when he was the nominee was really leaning into the dangers of trump. And leaning into, you know, the fact that sort of crypto fascist plan he has for the united states if he becomes president again. Whereas kamala harris is doing it kind of a different way. She's doing more of an outreach campaign, widening the tent to include even dick cheney and talking about bringing the country together, and it's been more of that tack than really leaning in to the dangers of donald trump. Obviously, tim walz has completely deconstructed him as really weird rather than just dangerous. Which of those two, you know, what should the balance be tonight in the way she is presenting not just herself but the person at the other podium? well, if you watch the way she dealt with a lot of the trump cabinet appointees is she had really good ways of exposing them for who they are. And a lot of times it wasn't a bald faced attack. It was the appropriate sort of nuanced question or a simple statement that laid plain the evidence. Donald trump, as you said, is a guy that his former chief of staff, his two secretary of defenses, multiple cabinet members as well, dick cheney and others, many, many republicans have come out and either endorsed her or have just stayed away from donald trump. He's a man that is indicted by his own party's behavior towards him, and in many ways i think that speaks for itself. I think she's going to find very deft ways of coming forward and reminding people of the chaos, of the kind of crassness, of the kind of person that he is that was twice impeached, has multiple indictments, has dozens of convictions. Somebody whose character is so bad that even his charity was fined millions of dollars and forced to shut down. I'm really confident she's going to bring that out but do it in a way that doesn't take her into the mud where donald trump loves to go, but do it in a way that simply is straight with the american people and lets them come to the conclusions that to me are very obvious. New jersey senator cory booker, thank you so much for your time, and now back to you, rachel. Thank you very much. Thank you, senator. No matter what the candidates might have done or not done to prepare for this debate, you can't prepare for everything. Not every last little thing. The story of one moment that no one could have anticipated from a 2020 debate and what it tells us about the vice president's abilities and discipline on the stage. That's when we come back. Stay with us. With us after careful review of medical guidance and research on pain relief, my recommendation is simple: every home should have salonpas. Powerful yet nonaddictive. Targeted and longlasting. I recommend salonpas. It's good medicine. ♪ hisamitsu ♪ experience a complete, nutrient packed meal in under 2 minutes itwith golo foods. . Don't deprive your body, fuel it. Visit golofoods. Com today and experience how delicious fueling your body can be. 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They want that hollywood white smile. New sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. I think it's a great product. It's going to help a lot of patients. Sunset in philadelphia, the unmistakable philly skyline. The last time we saw kamala harris in a debate was four years ago, when she faced off with debate in 2020. You remember anything from that debate? might remember they were seated. You might remember i am speaking. Do you perhaps remember that partway through that event, poor vice president mike pence received a visit from a fly? a large black house fly, a very large black house fly landed on his bean and just stayed there, like started doing fly stuff. Jet black on his bright white hair. And it was there for more than two minutes. Which was neither the fly's fault nor vice president mike pence's fault. It just is a thing that happened. Mr. Pence himself was in no position to see the fly on the top of his own head. Like somebody says to you, hey, watch your head. You can't, your eyes are on it. If something is happening on the top of your head, how do you know? we know he didn't see it, but we know also that senator, then senator kamala harris could see it too. She was far apart from him, this was covid time. Look at those big plexiglass shields between them. They'r. We know that because a couple weeks later, i asked her if she could see it. I just realized that i would kick myself if i didn't just ask you before i let you go if you noticed the fly on vice president pence's head at the time during the debate or if that was something rachel. We could see it at home. Could you see it sitting next to him? so if you want so again, it is not his fault. But if you want to know how aware the candidates are of what is going on around them, thensenator kamala harris, then vice prel candidate kamala harris apparently was aware enough to notice that persistent sixlegged visitor on mike pence's head, which i mean, of all the things you plan for, how do you plan for that? symone sanders townsend. What in the world? i was standing on the side, i was thinking, oh, she did talk to rachel after that. I was standing on the side in the makeshift set that we had at the time during that interview, and i was standing, trying not to laugh because she genuinely was like oh, rachel. We're like, oh, my god, rachel asking about the fly. She did see the fly. How could you miss the fly? we did not know you were going to ask about the fly? of course. Prepping for the debate, how do you prep for it? is there like in the debate prep session, when you get to z, is there zoological phenomenon? if there's something natural that happens on set, do you swat it? do you say, oh, got a little lipstick on your teeth, a fly on your head? definitely didn't have the fly on my bingo card in the debate prep. Karen dunn who led the prep, i don't think she it on hers either. Wasn't in the briefing brook. The set you saw then senator harris and then former vice president pence sitting on in the debate prep, we had a fullstage mockup that looked like that. You want your candidate when you have money, because when you have money you can do this kind of thing, especially when you're the democratic nominee or the running mate, you have cash. Some of the cash you use is to make sure that the preparation for the debate mirrors almost the environment, almost as identical as what will actually happen. There was a full stage mockup with the chairs and everything. Looked just like almost identical to the set that you just saw. So i have no doubt that while vice president harris was in her debate camp, as we like to call it in the political world, because you camp out for a week essentially, oftentimes, there was a full stage mockup of the stage that she will meet former president trump on tonight. It would be important for that debate because of covid rules, they were really far apart from each other. They were seated which is not that weird for a vice presidential debate, but far apart from each other at an angle with plexiglass shields that did not keep out flies. Didn't keep flies out, and literally, the physical representation of there was plexiglass, as you said, covid was the through line, the coronavirus pandemic and the trump administration's handling of it was the through line. What is her argument, all these other things we can talk about, but her argument centered on she kept bringing it back to the coronavirus and the botched handling by the trump administration. I'll be looking for what is the through line for this debate. If i'm looking at what the campaign has put out, what the vice president herself has been saying, i think the through line is going to be the economy, but when it comes to the inflation, the price gouges, she's going to talk about her plans, talk about what the administration has tried to do, going to talk about the botched handling of the pandemic. Then she's going to juxtapose it with what donald trump is saying about tariffs because that will exacerbate the effects on the american people. Tariffs are a tax that gets passed on to americans. That's going to be the through line, i think, but you never know. Ari, in terms of looking at this, i saw you had a lot of expert opinion, a lot of good advice on your show on your hour tonight, looking ahead toward what we're going to see. But just personally for you, what are you either what's your advice or what are you expecting? i think you prepare for everything from the fly to how donald trump operates. You have to see it in the moment and you have to have enough preparation also just to be human and be sharp and trust yourself to go in the moment. I think kamala harris has done that throughout her career. That's how she got here. I do think donald trump being such a liar, which can work more on the less engaged audience, which you get tonight. They're talking about seinfeld level numbers in the new york times, that means people who aren't as accustomed to inoculating against it. As we think about that challenge, i'm going to go 50 cent. Okay. I hate a liar more than i hate a thief. A thief is after my salary, a liar is after my reality. And that is what he does with his bumbling and his lying and the way that he lies about himself. His record, the future, abortion, how abortion actually operates. Some people will know those are lies because they have lived it and experienced these issues. Other people may get confused. We did hear from senator butler tonight who is a confidante of harris and she said harris intends tonight to be a truth teller but not a fact checker. It's such a strong distinction of tell your story, be honest with the american people. But don't try to deal with every single thing he does. He will try to do that. He isn't just lying, he trolls. He says things that tap your moral compass, hey, is this thing on. You better respond to me because this thing i'm saying is so offensive, i essentially force you morally to respond to it. That's one of his tactics as a politiciandebater. He will try to get her to respond. The top democrat from the state that might be the most important and most unpredictable battleground in the whole country is standing by at a watch party tonight. Pennsylvania governor josh shapiro is going to join us here live next. We'll be right back. A smart move to get a second opinion. You do it when you're looking for a contractor. You definitely do it with medical advice. So why not with your stock market investments? we can help you see opportunities you may be missing. At hennion & walsh it only takes a second to schedule your free second opinion. So what's there to lose? speak to hennion & walsh. The second opinion people. Why use 10 buckets of water when you can use 1 fire extinguisher. And to fight heartburn, why take 10 antacids throughout the day when you can take 1 prilosec. For easier heartburn relief, one beats ten. Prilosec otc. One pill. 24 hours. Zero heartburn. (granddaughter laughing) when pain freezes you in your tracks. . . . . . Vapofreeze your pain away. 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We would love to join you. ♪♪ it is fitting that this philadelphia debate tonight takes place in the largest city, in what is likely the most important swing state in the country and i mean that mathematically. Pennsylvania is definitely a swing state. It has 19 electoral votes, which is more than michigan. More than georgia, more than north carolina, more than ohio, more than virginia, more than wisconsin. Unless the democrats put florida in play and make it a swing state once again, it is pennsylvania that has more electoral votes than any other swing state in this country and pulling out of pennsylvania in the past few days shows harris and trump locked in what is essentially a tie in that state. Jim rocky has the best possible expert on this issue standing by. There is no better expert. Joining us now from a watch party in philadelphia is the governor of pennsylvania, josh shapiro. Thank you for being with us tonight. I'm sure you are on pins and needles like the rest of us, so thank you for taking this time. The debate is happening in your home state. You are at this watch party. Voting is starting in six days, which is pretty remarkable. That it is starting at the end of this week. What are you hoping or what do you think undecided voters are hoping to hear tonight from kamala harris? what do they need to hear from her? look, jen, as you know there is such a stark contrast in this race. I think kamala harris well tell her story and also her vision for this country and prosecute the heck out of the case against donald trump. You cannot have a clearer contrast. Kamala harris spent her career standing up for the people. Donald trump spent his career screwing over the people and kamala harris has stood up time and time again to protect our fundamental freedoms. A freedom that was born right here in the city of philadelphia. Donald trump has spent his career ripping away those freedoms. You have a clear contrast in this race and i expect you will see that on full display tonight in the debate. There is no question there is a big contrast. I think this is so different because they have never met before. They have never debated before. One of the pieces of advice that secretary clinton reportedly gave to vice president harris is don't be baited by former president trump. Turn it back on him. I'm lost, sorry. We lost the governor for a moment. Let's see if we can get him back. Interrupt us if we can get them back. I could tell at the beginning. That he was having a hard time hearing, yeah. It was a loud watch party. You have to expect, i don't know how many tens of millions of people are going to watch tonight, but the hillary clinton and donald trump debate in 2016 was the mostwatched presidential debate ever. Wasn't that like 80 million people watching? i can't imagine we will get numbers that gigantic, but everybody that i know in my whole life and most people in my life are not politics people, are planning on watching this thing. Every single person. I think it will be at that level or better because i think this election takes place in such an urgent moment. Post dobbs everything is more urgent and because of the drama of the last 6 to 8 weeks when you have a new democratic nominee, has turned people onto this race, including my kids friends who were not paying attention and were deliberately tuning out the race of the two old guys and now are engaged. So i think a lot of people will be watching and i think she appeared in small snippets with megan thee stallion or in memes, the coconut memes and untick talk. Brat summer. Right. This is a lot of people's opportunity to get a look at her because no one pays attention to the vice president. I feel exactly in agreement. We went from a rematch that felt like a rerun to a lot of people to a completely new character. We discussed it on this table. I remember after the biden trump debate and you saying here is what we saw, we will deal with the facts. People saying they dislike those facts so much, they wish they are different, is fine. It is a feeling. But what that spawned was this replacement that other time people said, will she be treated like vice president? no, it is very clear that she got a restart. The democratic party said we are looking at her anew. You can talk to anybody. Republicans have acknowledged in private this is one of the best fiveweek rollouts you can get another country is saying let's look at her anew. That is a test for her tonight, but clearly interest in, for lack of a better term, a new character. I'm not an expert in these things and i would not believe advice for me, but if i were the harris campaign i would be thinking about americans who say donald trump is kind of a jerk and i am kind of over him. I don't like democrats generally, maybe i am not going to vote, and try to get people to say take another look. You don't need to persuade people of anything new about donald trump, just that you are there for them if they are looking for something to vote for. No question those are the people and we have been in these rooms. The challenges this. Democrats are so hungry for someone to absolutely eviscerate donald trump, right? and go after him and go after him and go after him. That may not be what the 28% of people in the new york times poll want to see. They want maybe something different and for them you have to punch him and do it quickly, i guess. Give them something to vote for. We are counting down until the debate starts. 9:00 eastern. A reminder, you can watch the entire debate here with us plus our full coverage after that. We are trying to fix the audio with governor shapiro in pennsylvania. Still to come, we have governor gavin newsom. We have so much yet to get to. Stay with us. Great. One more thing to worry about. It was all too hard to deal with in the beginning, but making a plan with my doctor to add precision was easy. Preservision areds2 contains the exact nei recommended, clinically proven nutrient formula to help reduce the risk of moderate to advanced amd progression. Thanks to preservision, i feel better that i'm doing something about it like millions of others. Preservision. Type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® trizone. ♪ ♪ i got the power of 3. I lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. In studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. I'm under 7. 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Welcome back to our special coverage of the presidential debate tonight between vice president kamala harris and former president donald trump. You're looking live at the national constitution center in downtown philadelphia, where we are awaiting the start of the debate in about one hours time. Just before the break we had been speaking with pennsylvania governor josh shapiro and audio gremlins left in between us and him and brought the interview to an unceremonious close. I have been told we vanquished the gremlins and we have the governor back. I am very sorry that happened. Thank you very much for sticking with us. The gremlins are gone. There is so much energy here in delhi, and must have messed up the earpiece, but i am back and excited to talk to you. I know you are at a watch party and nationwide there is an electric atmosphere around this debate. We are expecting one of the largest television audiences for anything short of the super bowl. Can you tell me in pennsylvania which is so tight and so crucial a swing state between these candidates, is there a sense that tonight's debate could be determinative? that it could be a real hinge for one or both candidates in terms which direction the race is going in your state? look, i don't know that it is determinative, but i know a lot of people are really interested. I was in southcentral pennsylvania today. Northeastern pennsylvania and now philadelphia in the southeastern part of our state and a whole lot of folks came over and said i will be watching that debate or i am really interested in this or that or i am excited to see how this goes, so i think genuinely there is a lot of excitement, a lot of enthusiasm and some curiosity about how it is all going to go, so i think people are excited and will be tuning in. Governor we got a little bit of reporting outside of our coverage. Among the people in touch with vice president harris in the lead up to this debate is former presidential candidate hillary clinton, the only woman who also debated donald trump oneonone on the debate stage and according to reporting, clinton shared insight with vice president harris about how trump may attempt to bait her and suggested vice president harris should, in that instance, try to turn that around and turn it back on trump himself and try to provoke him directly. I want to get your reaction to that, whether you think that is good advice. Whether we should expect to see that tonight and if that is the sort of thing voters should be looking forward to. I have known kamala harris for nearly 20 years. She is a total pro. She is tough as nails. She knows to both share her vision for the country and how to prosecute the case against donald trump, but make no mistake, donald trump is tough in a debate. He has done this more than anyone else. Year after year he has been doing it in republican primaries and general elections. The guy is willing to lie about anything. He is literally willing to lie from one question to another, so it is hard to pin the guy down. It is hard to debate him, but i think kamala harris has a strong record, a great vision and a way about her that will allow her to prosecute the case effectively against donald trump. Make no mistake it will be a tough outing, but i know she is up to it. One of the things that recently has happened in the campaign which historically is a little bit of a surprise. You usually expect both candidates to tack to the center, to alleviate concerns about them being outside of american norms. About being any threat to the country. The kinds of weston's their opponents might've made against them by this point in the campaign. Instead donald trump seems to be tacking to the opposite direction. He has promised in writing in the past days that he wants longterm prison sentences for his political opponents, which he defined broadly to include, for instance, donors. People who donate money to political candidates. He wants longterm prison sentences for those people. He has talked about it being bloody, in terms of what he plans to do with deporting people by the millions from this country. Do you think vice president harris should bring those things up and confront them with those things? we know candidates should not ask weston's directly, but she will have some leeway to do that. Do you think she should confront him with that stuff? i'm sure she will prosecute the case to make sure donald trump is an extremist. Listen, rachel, this is not theoretical. In 2016 we sort of wondered if he was really serious about the crazy, extreme stuff he was saying. Then he got elected president and he did a lot of that extreme stuff before he knew what he was doing. Before he knew how to run the federal government. Now, all these years later he is not only more extreme than he was before and has a track record of dangerous positions, he has literally told us what he plans to do if he is afforded a second term in that whole project 2025 thing. Look, maya angelou said if someone tells you who they are, believe them. We need to believe donald trump's extremism. He has clear plans on how to rip away more freedoms from the american people. How to weaponize our military. How to weaponize our justice system and use it against people that he considers to be enemies. This is really dangerous stuff and it is not theoretical anymore. This is very, very real. So yes, i anticipate kamala harris will press the case and make clear to the american people not just the stark contrast between she and donald trump, but also the real danger that he poses to our freedoms, our democracy and our way of life. Pennsylvania governor josh shapiro, really appreciate you being here tonight, sir. It is a night where people feel like a lot is on the line and your home state of pennsylvania tonight, i know you have a lot of demands on you. Thank you for spending time with us. Good to be with you. Thanks, rachel. Vice president harris and former president trump will take the stage at this stage we've been showing you at the national constitution center in philadelphia. For perspective on the size and impact of this event, you should know as we mentioned earlier that presidential debates usually rank just behind the super bowl in term of the american public's viewership. It means tonight will almost certainly be the biggest audience these candidates are going to speak to before an election day. The rules of this debate which were set by abc news are more or less identical to the rules of the last debate between trump and president biden. The debate will be 90 minutes. There will be two, relatively short commercial breaks. Candidates are not allowed to leave the stage during the commercial, nor are they allowed to talk to anyone from their campaigns during those breaks and no, we will not be allowed to spy on them during the commercial breaks to see them awkwardly standing there, talking to no one and definitely not making small talk with each other while the commercials play. I asked. There will be no opening statements. Questions from the moderators will start off the top. There will be no studio audience. The only people allowed to ask questions will be moderators. Candidates will not be allowed to ask each other direct questions, although you know they always do. Each candidate will get two minutes to answer questions, two minutes for rebuttal and one more minute for followups. Candidates will not be allowed to bring notes or props on stage. They will each be provided a pad of paper and a pen and a bottle of water and that is it and they can't have anything else with them. Donald trump won a coin flip that took place before tonight's proceedings. Winning that coin flip allowed him to choose either which side of the stage he wanted to be on or the order of the closing statements. He decided to let kamala harris choose the podium she wanted, she will be on the right, and he decided to go second in closing statements which means effectively tonight he will have the last word and then there is perhaps the most contentious rule. When a candidate is not speaking, that candidates microphone will be muted. That rule was in place during the last debate between president biden and donald trump. Now that kamala harris is at the top of the ticket her campaign tried to change that and sent a letter to abc arguing she would be disadvantaged by this format. The campaign argued that it would, quote, shield donald trump from direct exchanges with the vice president, but in the end the harris campaign did not prevail, so the microphones will be muted when the candidate is not speaking. That said, just to keep things spicy, apparently the moderators do have the option i don't totally understand this, perhaps my colleagues do. The moderators do have the option to unmute both candidates microphones at the same time if there is significant enough crosstalk that they feel they need to. If they feel they need to unmute both microphones in order for the audience to understand what is going on, they have the leeway to do that. That would be an extraordinary circumstance, so i should say we don't expect that, but honestly who expects anything anymore? anything is possible. Monk's mayfly. Water may flow uphill. So we thank you for being with us tonight. We know you have every option to watch tonight's debate. We are grateful you are here with us. I am joined in new york by my colleagues troy reed, nicolle wallace, chris hayes, and lawrence o'donnell. I want to start with you about those rules. Does anything jump out at you? i am proud about winning the coin toss again to get to sit behind joy reid. Thank you. For the most absurdist reading of debate rules in history. Debate rules are an embarrassment to the american political system. It is a game show created for and by television. It is preposterous at every level. A president is never limited to two minutes in a response or in time to say something. Then when you get all the way down to this utterly nutty, microphones are absolutely muted, except they are not and when they are not is not describable. This set of rules has crossed the line into the twilight zone of debate rules, but i don't want to ruin the suspense. Trump is going to lose the debate, because in debating you lose if you lie, right off the bat. You lose hundreds of points if you live. He is going to lie and for younger people, they might not know. Prior to trump, lying did not happen in presidential debates. Disagreements did. You know, bush might say tax increases will hurt the economy and the democrat might say please tell me when that has ever happened, because they don't. That kind of interpretation of what happens with a tax cut or your idea of how to cut the deficit won't actually work, but people were not lying. The worst moment any candidate suffered in a presidential debate was when jerry ford, as president in his debate said that he did not think poland was heavily under the influence and controlled by the soviet union and he had to correct that the next day and that's it. That's it in the whole history. A factual mistake. That is known. Sorry, that is actually wrong. It was not a lie. It was an attempt by a politician to make something sound better for his purposes. You know it lived within the norm of political attempts to bend stuff and he bent it too far. He bent reality and he lost arguably over it. It was really a devastating moment. This trumpian thing is nonsense. It makes the entire debate idea even more absurd than it has always been. Trump is going to lose and the question is, is the american media going to recognize that? are they going to say he lied well? that was good, that worked. That is what will happen after this. There are going to be people arguing that donald trump did okay or that kamala harris did not do okay, when he is going to lie and lose. There is no doubt about it. So i will distinguish between the rules of the debate which i think you have inarguably dismantled and the logistics of the debate, because they did make logistical decisions that in some cases the campaigns disagreed with. One of those is no audience, which the harris campaign has contended is a disadvantage. That might be counterintuitive, but their contention is that a live audience brings out the worst in donald trump and without a live audience you essentially get quiet trump, which is not really trump and is maybe his best foot forward in terms of presenting himself. Because he seems like a person who can control his own faculties. What you make of these rules and logistics and how campaigns are viewing them as advantages or disadvantages? this might make me unpopular. I don't think anyone at the harris campaign cares about this. They are talking tonight and the momentum she has achieved we compare her candidacy to obama, but president obama had months and months to get to where she got in days and days. So she has to build this incredibly successful movement, which she gets to do tonight. To take that sort of political special sauce that she and only she has ever done in american politics and present it to the largest tv audience. That's it. No one that she cares about gives a about the rules and she agreed to them, so she is not a victim of the rules. The rules are what the rules are, but what her miracle campaign needs to do tonight is leave all of this to us. Leave this to cable chatter and grab the voters who have not seen a rally or know who she is or maybe they have heard some of those lies. Maybe they heard she is a radical san francisco liberal and she needs to do what liz cheney said and deliver a speech that george w. Bush could've given or ronald reagan. So far the largest tv audience that has seen her, but if you see her tonight and she gives again what liz cheney says was a speech that ronald reagan could have given, you won't believe the lies. This is ceaselessly interesting to us and i have an even more radical view than you. I think there is one question. Who one 2020? if they can't get trump to tell the truth i don't think they should go any further, like stay on it. Your attorney general said that was i'm not sure that it helps kamala harris sustain this is what chris hayes was saying earlier in the coverage, that what harris needs to do is between how much time she spends, acknowledging someone else on the stage and how much time she spends speaking through the camera to people at home who are watching her, trying to figure out whether or not they want to vote for her. It is difficult to calibrate because she is a human being, so she is going to say things that are false, to lawrence's point. Not just lies, but lies that are disgusting. The kinds of things that, you know, would get you kicked off of social media platforms once upon a time. So things like that and how you respond or not. I also think there are two parts of the debate. The fact she will have more people to talk to than any other audience and then there is your point about the postdebate narrative and we know that one of the things that does happen is that does matter a lot. There is what people see and then there is the discussion afterwards and the clips on tiktok and that sort of thing. I really do think this is where the asymmetry is at its most egregious. If kamala harris yesterday had posted identically what donald trump did on twitter, it would literally be the only story in america today. I don't think there is a question about that. It would be a frontpage story in the new york times. It would be everything. Kamala harris calls to prosecute and jail what? the new york times would literally cancel every other opinion piece and have everyone else write on that, all condemning it. There is this unavoidable asymmetry and maybe it is avoidable, but there are two stages here. There is kamala harris addressing the american people and there is the way this debate gets digested. We have to take one last break before we are getting into the debate tonight. I want to remind you that you can watch the whole debate right here, plus our analysis thereafter. California governor gavin newsom is going to be joining us from philadelphia after we squeeze in this quick break. Governor newsom with alex wagner, just ahead. We will be right back. University of maryland global campus is a school for real life, one that values the successes you've already achieved. Earn up to 90 undergraduate credits for relevant experience and get the support you need from your first day to graduation day and beyond. What will your next success be? ♪(voya)♪ there are some things that work better together. Like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. Voya helps you choose the right amounts without over or under investing. So you can feel confident in your financial choices voya, well planned, well invested, well protected. Why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? and look at me now. You'll never truly forget migraine, but zeromigraine days are possible. Don't take if allergic to qulipta®. Most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and sleepiness. Qulipta®. The forgetyouget migraine medicine™. I came to bayview hunter's point, where there was only one pediatrician to serve more than 10,000 children. Daniel lurie said, i'm going to help. We opened a clinic for our most vulnerable children. I have worked shoulder to shoulder with him as we have brought solutions where people thought the problem was unsolvable. Daniel doesn't take excuses. He holds himself accountable. And i know that he can do it for the city of san francisco. (♪♪) behind every splenda product is a mission. Helping millions of people reduce sugar from their diets. Now try a sweetener grown by u. S. Farmers. Introducing zerocalorie splenda stevia. At splenda stevia farms, our plants are sweetened by sunshine. Experience how great splenda stevia can be. Grown on our farm, enjoyed at your table. (♪♪) california governor gavin newsom is standing by right now with alex wagner. Over to you. Thanks, rachel. I want everyone to know for truth in journalism, i am on a booster seat right now. Governor, i think we all remember at the convention you took vice president harris over the top and nominated her on the floor. An exciting moment for california. I know you have a long history with the vice president. Can you talk about what your expectations are tonight for someone on the biggest stage arguably of her political life, but has been making the argument for a while? i don't want to understate or overstate, but i have great expectations. I've been at those debates. I was in the room. I've seen her underestimated. I've seen her capacity to get under their skin. Forgive me, this is not a cliche thing to say, prosecute the case, whatever that may be. Also for the future, so i think we will see that tonight. I think she will be tough and won't sit back and take it from trump. I also think she will be talking about you and me and the people watching. You bring up the gender piece of this which i think is worth talking a little bit about because in the last debate, which featured president biden and donald trump, trump was kind of self contained to a large degree. He was spreading disinformation, but he was not as aggressively mendacious as he has been. Because he did not b2b. Did not need to be. He is thinskinned. Weakness masquerading as strength. This is a fragile guy. This is a broken person. He really is. As a consequence of that he is incredibly vulnerable. Referring to who he is, which is someone who does not necessarily feel worthy and is trying to overcompensate. He is easily prone to get off message. I think that is why he has the opportunity she has the opportunity to be effective tonight. I don't think she will be timid. I don't think she will overdo it, but i tell you what, kamala harris will shine tonight. This is about dignity, about respect and she's going to demand it on stage and if he does not provide it it feels like because she is a woman, because he is a person of color, she triggers trump in a way that biden didn't necessarily and trump's ability to control himself. We are hearing from his campaign, maybe a question tonight. When you say she will bring her prosecutorial a game, one thing that has been successful was to have natural human reactions to things. How much do you expect humor to be a tool she deploys against? we talked about that and we've seen people ask what is it about kamala harris that you don't know going back decades. It is her humor, it is her wit. It is the joy you are now seeing. I saw her at a fundraiser and said that the joy is back. There is a lightness to her. She pivots again to prosecute the case with the future. People say how can she be the change candidate? she is change. She is not joe biden and she sure as hell is not donald trump. She represents a new generation. Prosecuting a case where everyone feels seen and included. That is a lot to do. Humor, natural reactions, prosecuting. You are someone on newsmax and fox. You are unafraid to go to the other side, earth 2 as we call it. How do you pick and choose which pieces of information, which trolls to respond to in a format where there is a healthy back and forth? i think when you are demeaning other people, attacking vulnerable communities, when you are being a bully, i think that is when you stand up and that is about character. That is about values. Anytime it respects reflects in that space where you are attacking minority communities, attacking immigrants, talking down our past people, standing up tall and pushing back has universal trades. We all want to be loved and respected. We all want to be protected and connected to something larger than ourselves. If she can bring that to the sand defend the defenseless, she walks away with this debate. I think belatedly we are having this national conversation about sane watching donald trump. The fact this man has been rambling incoherently for months if not years, but especially in recent weeks and i think we are finally having this dialogue about how do you not normalize or how do you not trend toward coherence when you're talking about what trump said? how do you accurately explain to the american public the mid the aggression in a way that accurately reflects the tone and tenor of a person that is increasingly unhinged? not only unhinged, but derivative of himself. What does that mean, derivative of himself? he is boring. I might get in trouble with this, particularly with his audience. Five or six years ago you tune in for the train wreck or the clown show, but there was entertainment value. Now he has monotone aunt pouring across the board. Even his audiences are paying attention not to the speech. To themselves. Walking out early. What i think will happen tonight if she is successful, he will start up that old trumpet the last debate and try to be the new trump again. One guy universally graded on the curve. In his little pity party he is the victim. He has always been the victim, but there will be a point where he gets off his game. Two minutes, two minutes. The one minute followup. He is incapable of not taking the bait and she is very capable of not taking the bait. She is extraordinarily disciplined, particularly in an environment like this. Look back at her debates consistently. This is where she shows up and shines. All that said, i'm not naive. This guy does not play by the rules, which means he has more options and when someone has more options, he is a more challenging person to debate. So i am not suggesting this is a huge challenge, but i have all the confidence back to your opening question that she is up to the challenge. Governor gavin newsom, it is great to hear perspectives and words of wisdom as we had to a consequential night in american politics. Back to you. Thank you, alex. Thank you, governor. To the point he made that he may lose people in our audience by saying it, but he essentially said that trump is derivative of himself. Alex got him to clarify that by that he means he is boring. He says trump used to be, even in his political life, more entertaining, but now he is so selfreferential that he actually can't hold a tune. He can't tell a good joke. He can't follow a story through to the end. He is constantly referring back to some tangential or self referential thing in a way that loses people and he is describing that as a weakness that trump will not be able to resist falling into, particularly as the night goes on. And i think it is always important to remember this donald trump is four years older than the trump who debated hillary clinton and he is older yet than the person on the apprentice, who could read when the producers would tell him who to fire, he could do that. He could perform that. Eight years older. Eight years older, sorry. Nicole makes this point a lot. His act is so stale, that fox doesn't even really cover him live anymore. It is very rare that they take him because i think they realized it is unhelpful to their preferred candidate to show him and the more you watch him we do show him sometimes, because you watch it and what you really see is a decrepit mind. A person who is declining. He is the oldest person ever to run for president and it is clear he is in some form of cognitive decline and he keeps referring back to things that make him comfortable. Hannibal lecter, the movie he went to the premier of the second version of. He goes to places that are bizarre, but i think to take it back to what lawrence said and i think to what nicolle said, too, this is the reason this debate is so artificial and in some ways built in a nonsensical way, because they are sane watching him in real time. By muting his microphone and not showing you the way trump is really like, what they are doing is presenting an artificially cleaned up version of donald trump. I think for vice president harris she really can't think about him, like i think about the way when she responded to dana bash when she asked that absurd question about her racial identity and she said same old thing, next thing. It was such a brilliant way to dismiss something stupid. I think she does need to correct things like the tariffs and explain what a tariff is, i think of that comes up. But i will reiterate what i said before. This is a 90 minute tv show for vice president harris to present herself to the small number of people who are watching, who want to vote, but for whatever reason have not gone from biden to her, from independent to her or from not voting to her. Treat it like a tv show and that is your audience. How do you get those people to vote for you? you have to think of donald trump as a tv show because he is. It is in its ninth year. The ninth year of the series. There is no tv series in history that was better in its ninth year than its fourth year or its first year. Okay? never. Audience fatigue sets in on most tv series before they ever get to nine and you are lucky in that itself. He is stretching this tv series now into its ninth year with no new episodes. It is the same script from the pilot, from the first episode. The product is that the the problem is that the product tieins are more lethal. There is a loaded gun toward democracy. The most extreme element of our politics. I think, you know, chris christie has an oped out tonight and makes good points, having prepped trump 30 times and debated him himself. That harris seems to have already incorporated in her presentation to this important swath of voters and i would add to your list, she should go for twotime trump voters who had enough of the tv show. How do you get those, nicolle? i think you put dick cheney on a bus with bernie sanders and if they can be on the bus together that long michigan. And maybe drive them or you know, ask a josh shapiro where he deployed all the republicans who endorsed him. Josh shapiro ran a coalition candidacy that destroyed doug mastriano. She has a coalition of support and if you know david plough and we all knew from being on tv. He will make sure she takes the things people care about. Housing, education, groceries, everything. I think in terms of the political building blocks, she will do all of this and to your point about the filter on this, we can't sit here and say did she speak to the kitchen table issues? did she fact check him? all she has to do, i think what the governor said. If you look how she dismantled brett kavanaugh and jeff sessions and bill barr. It wasn't by saying, brett kavanaugh you have never backed a law that controls a man's body. It was by saying you know any laws that govern what a man can do to his body? i'm sorry, i don't understand the question. I will repeat it. She is good at asking questions that reveal everything about men that are 1 million times smarter than donald trump will ever be. While kamala harris is in philadelphia tonight for the debate, tim walz has spent the day campaigning in swing state arizona. He is expected to attend a debate watch party in mesa, arizona. You are looking live at that venue now. After the debate democratic vice presidential nominee tim walz will be joining us. He will be our guest on msnbc. He is coming, look busy. We will be his only cable news interview tonight once the debate is over, so stay tuned after the debate for that interview. Let's go now to nbc news political and national correspondent jacob soboroff, famous for being the easiest man to talk to in all of america news. Jacob is watching the debate with a focus group of swing state arizona, in phoenix. If i understand some of the folks who are there with you tonight talked to us after the first presidential debate of trump and biden. There is not total overlap, but some of those folks overlap. It will be especially interesting to hear from them now. Reporter: i am excited to introduce everybody to those folks in the reason we are inside and the watch parties are inside, it is 107 degrees right now in phoenix, arizona. They have had a ridiculous stretch of over 100 degree temperatures, so our nbc partner and affiliate here have been nice enough to invite us inside. 12 news has been following the race closely not only because maricopa county where we are is the largest swing jurisdiction in the entire nation of 4. 5 million voters. The state was decided by only 11,000. The candidates have been here nonstop. This will come down to the voters and let's go see them right now. They have been nice enough to handle and if there sets to us and if you remember last time it was gadi schwartz and jeff is one that we met here. Your quote after the debate was donald trump, no, biden, oh no. That's correct and now we come to the next debate and have to decide is kamala harris up to the task of taking trump down because he is unacceptable on every basis. After the last one you think you could come out going for vice president harris? either that or i'm not going to vote for president. Reporter: i will quickly go around the table. Nicole was with us last time and i remember you saying you are not participating at the top of the ticket. How are you feeling today? very much today. I need to see a different character than i have seen consistently in the past and i would have to see that character continue to change. Reporter: this is juan carlos and it will be his first election. You are leaning toward trump, but you said you don't like the rhetoric that you hear from him on immigration. Is there a chance based on what you see tonight that you could go the other direction? my family came here legally and they are legal immigrants and he has referred to other countries in a similar way. Reporter: this is romeo. You were talking about voting for biden in 2020. You are leaning to trump, but tonight you could sway the other way, is that right? absolutely. I am looking for kamala to affirm where she stands on these issues. I have heard she flipflopped a lot, so i am wanting to see where she stands. Reporter: you might remember denise who said she wrote herself on top of the ticket in 2016 and 2020. Are you still thinking about doing that or will this debate maybe be a game changer? there are eight states, one of which being pennsylvania, which allows write in candidate votes to count without having to file any paperwork. Reporter: denise, we will check with you after the debate. Remind me of your name one more time, forgive me. Julian. Reporter: julian is a musician and someone who is not always participating in the process. You were telling us when it was biden versus trump that you felt the candidates did not understand your life, but if i am not mistaken you feel differently now, right? yeah, i think vice president kamala harris, she goes more toward the middle class and reporter: you were saying even you were struggling may be paying for housing. This is not an exaggeration. You thought you could end up homeless of step with homeless if stuff with your job doesn't go the right way. If i don't find a job in october. Reporter: julian, thank you very much. We will check in after the debate. Finally this is bonnie. 30 years as an elementary school teacher. The thing i love about what bonnie said before the debate is you said there are a lot of pejoratives thrown around about undecided voters. You said that is the opposite with you. You have been paying close attention. How are you still undecided? that is correct. I have been paying a lot of attention and the negativity overshadows the issues. So i am still at the point where i am undecided and possibly i will not vote for president. Reporter: could that change tonight? i am coming in with an open mind and hopefully i will feel strongly. Reporter: that is why we assembled this group. It is going to be exciting to be with everyone here tonight watch. Thanks again to our colleagues at 12 news in phoenix and we will be here on the other side of the debate. See you then. I can't wait to hear whether or not the things that everyone is looking for is what they hear from the debate. It will be fascinating. You should also tell everyone that they auditioned to be local newspeople and it went very well and they are in line for a job. Reporter: she said you can all be part of the 12 news team when we get done with this. Rachel, there is a lot of behindthescenes stuff. I will show you after the debate. You have other things to do. No, go on. Go on. Show me. Reporter: i knew you were going to do this. Here we go. The real phoenixes behind the fake phoenix, i had no idea. What? there is an opaque screen that shows a fake view of the real view? reporter: just in case. It could be very hot. We don't want people to be sweating when we are watching the debate. When the time is right you open it up. I kept it closed. They will open it up. Thank you very much, jacob. Fantastic. 107 degrees in phoenix. 100 days straight, a new record for the city of phoenix. 100 days straight smashed the old record in the 50s or 60s, i think. What are you saying? what are you implying? i have no idea. Drill, baby, drill. I think we have to drill out of phoenix. That is my platform. Trying to get other people to do it as well. The viability. Exactly. Trying to campaign. On the climate issue i spent a little bit of time with the trump and republican party platform, which i will admit i did not spend a lot of time on before because i did not think there was much there. In addition to the one page document, they released a 16 page thing and the climate proposal is literally cold. The idea is coal, that we need to bring back burning coal. Agenda 47, not the project 2025 thing which they are trying to distance themselves from, which is hilarious. It is interesting because he was talking about his mental grooves and the places he goes back to comfortably. There are three positions he has where you can recognize policy positions and everything goes back to them. Border security, border wall. Tariffs, ring around the country, which are kind of the same thing. And then drill, baby, drill. We played this clip where a guy at the sturgis motorcycle rally asked the great question of i have multiple kids trying to rent. Rental prices are insane and i am paying my income, what should we do about it? brass tacks and he basically goes on a drill, baby drill. It's like, the drilling is not going to bring the rent down. Watch tonight, the comfort place he goes to is open the taps on oil and tariffs and order. And we are being laughed at as a country. Which i hope comes up. There were a few things where i think there is a lot of onus on abc, the moderators. Because if they don't bring up the fact he has accused haitians of eating pets, people's pets. Or if they don't bring up his plan to master port 12 million people and ask how would you choose the 12 million people? how would you round them up? what would be the process? why would it be bloody? it seems like that should come up. It will be interesting what choices they make and hopefully it won't just be framing things he said about vice president harris as questions for her and for him to expound on. We are a few minutes out from the start of the debate. Nicolle, i understand you have a special guest standing by. We are lucky to have someone we have all turn to in times like this. Joining us is illinois senator tammy duckworth. It is so essential that you are there and i wonder how strongly you feel or what your thoughts are about the cacophony of voices, specifically speaking to trump's lack of fitness to lead the military after his stunt at arlington and after his public displays of disregard for the men and women of the military. It is clear, we have always known this is a fivetime draft dodger. I give him the nickname, cadet bone spurs and yet he continues to insult our military families. When he was in office he changed the rules that arlington national cemetery so he could be buried there even though he never served in the united states military. He has no respect for our veterans and use arlington as a campaign commercial. There is no low to which this man will not sink. Yesterday 11 generals issued a letter impugning his ability to serve as commanderinchief. Dick cheney and liz cheney probably don't agree with democrats. Maybe by this point they do, but traditionally they do not. On questions of the constitution, national security, protecting our constitution, there are enthusiastic supporters of vice president kamala harris. How do you make sure that a broad coalition recognizes vice president harris has a diverse ring of support? specifically around her credentials and leadership on national security issues. I think you need more people to step forward about the need to maintain that support and republican voices coming forward. You see that tonight there are many people here. There is a group of return generals are already talking about how unfit trump really is and remember, this is a guy who attempted to overthrow the united states government. Tates attempted to overthrow the united states government because he lost an election and really i hope tonight kamala speaks to the american people and reassures them that she will be the candidate the president who e will respect an protect and defend the constitution of the united states. An oath the office that the president of the united states takes but obviously trump as president did not live up to that oath of office. But you're going to see more and more people step forward and it's not just going to be the high profile individuals. You're going to see every day americans step forward. Our rank and file troops in the military also stepping forward to say they truly would rather have kamala be the commander in chief than a donald trump. It's a theme that's really emerged every day. Since the convention. Senator, thank you so much for taking time to talk to us. Thank you nicole and thank you senator. Let's bring in wagner, with former u. S. Senator mccaskel. You guys get to have pizza in new york and hang out but i get to have hoagies in philadelphia and hang out with senator mccaskell so i win. You're a woman who served in the prosecutors office. I wonder if you think about kamala harris' history of kamala harris what you think that experience and any atfalls i don't think there are no falls. When you're a prosecutor you know what points you want to make on crossexamination. But you don't know what witnesses are going to say. You don't know n. How the judge going the rule on motions. You have to learn to think on your feet. It is an incredible training ground for debate. I watched her, it was so funny because we served on a committee together. And i would watch her cross examine witnesses, and she would watch me cross examine witnesses and we would talk about it. Hey. I don't think trump is going to be anyone than trump. He has had plenty of opportunitys to clean up his act, to quit insulting people, to quit being a jerk. Time after time. He just can't help himself. He thinks that's why people like him because he says things you're not supposed to say. So i just don't see him being the dokind of candidate tonight that ndis going to reassure america he's the guy and it is an old episode and it is tired. And on the other hand, i think she's going to show people she's ready. It's a sort of strange choreography right because there's clearly the polling shows that people want to know more about her and where she stands. But the same time the broad wisdom sais this election is about donald trump she wins. It seems it's one of the devices she uses to efficacy is questioning. Whether it's a senate confirmation hearing or in a debate setting she can, as nicole points out, get across a point without actually stating something but instead posing it as a question. And it feels like using that prosecutor skill of questioning will be effective with donald trump who does not have any real answers about anything. That's called cross examination. Exactly. When you pose a question that aioreally is a statement statement but in a form of a question that doesn't give the person asking the question a lot of wiggle room. There's not ona lot of places h can go. He'll wiggle. But her pjob really is to shri him on the stage. Yeah. If she takes command of the space and she is assertive, and friendly, and knowledgeable and i do think this thing about the military, is some secret sauce for her. I think there are a huge number of people in the country that are very uncomfortable. Has treated arlington, gold star families. If you look at the convention she's talked about fighting for good across the country. I think she's going to use that tonight. And that what she needs across the country with white men over 50. And it'll be great because a gold star father is going to be on with us at the round table. Alex and claire. Thank you. I want to mention one thing that's come up a couple of times as we're preparing for the debate. It's one of the open questions, sort of a wild card, it's not what's going to happen on stage but how it's going to be covered. This is something you're seeing reflected on recent news lines. For example the milwaukee journal sentinel was mostly in wisconsin to cover trump's rally. It says hanibal, le cter, al cs apone and list of promises. Trump was supposed to talk about his plans. Trump threatens to jail adversaries. Front page of the paper. Here's the washington e post headline to press conference the other day. Quote, trump rants, resurfaces sexual assault allegations for 49 unfocused minutes. And the washington post, following trump's train of thought as it derails on a child care question. And this is the new york times which i think has been aggravatingly kind and forgiving to trump in so much of its political coverage. This is from bill baker, as debate looms trump is now the one facing questions about age and capacity. One of the dynamics has changed since biden dropped out of the presidential race is trump is not only the oldest person in the race he would be the oldest person ever inaugurated as president if he wins. Whether his recent speaking style and fables are a reflex of that advanced age or if that's just what his brain is like regardless of how old he is, the issue, nicole and joy you both have been talking about this tonight. The issue of his coherence and his strangeness as a candidate is now more regularly showing up in headlines. And i think that it's being talked about more bluntly because i tathink reporters are getting less shy about the fact that he really, very often doesn't make any sense when he talks. Well and also because people are pointing it out. I think arlawrence did an excellent job inpointing it out the other day. I did a whole block on it on my show. Because it is a thing that's our responsibility. It's not our job to make donald trump's insanity sound sane. And i think for too long, the media has covered for him in a very particular way in taking bananas things he said and then translating them as if they really made sense if you reallyy just parched through them. They don't. I think we need to present them as they are, because they did not go away when they were talking about biden. Do you think the tide is turning in the way the mainstream down the middle press is seeing him. I think local reporters write what they say and see what they say and write what they see. You don't have the same risk of numbness. I think the platforming though is a complicated access around which a lot of us have twisted and turned. I for a long time especially after the dominion lawsuit and saw that fox was openly trying to reelect donald trump and aid him in his coo. I oriented if they're showing him it should be good for trump we should not be platforming him because of domestic violence extremist and domesticl terrorism. I examined broadcasting him unedited and live eand in realtime. Because now that i know their world view and their political and business aims vifrom domini what are they not showing us. We just went through the experiment enwhere you elected person of advanced age into the presidency. We all know the presidency stresses and ages people. That guy with the nuclear codes in four years is just an obviously insane thing. The person we're seeing right now, with the most powerful military on earth and the nuclear codes four years from now after s being president for four years. What are we doing here? the democrats put that decision heon the table as what it means to be putting country before party. Putting country before self interest and being realistic about the limitations imposed by a job that's high pressure and that ages even young people. They brought that up as a moral issue when biden stepped down. I think the age thing is done. Wait. Exactly. The issue on those articles has been about so called sane washing. It's really editing it's taking a crazy trump statement. Finding some words some where in the statement. Trying to stitch them together, to somehow make sense that they don't actually make. That's tthe thing that the pre seems to now finally been se working its way out of. I think the press is an exstatic thing. Rarely is it asked, is
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