Charm since the ninetys of the last century needs to be dismantled all the countries there are seriously attempting to come to grips with this epidemic i mean macro in france was korea it was election is based on making france until premier liberal state has now been full struve us all that and offering d to pay the utility bills council tax will go up you know people not so well off except princess shows that deep down this entire and they owe through worse major government in the western world are aware that the system which then being defended and supporting doesnt work for a majority of people thats the lesson to be drawn after the virus has been tackled there and should if i may just say one of the concrete. Letters showed no panic because it is bad for these caves is the tiny island of cuba where cruise ships which are not allowed to land anywhere on joc anywhere are jocking in cuba being greeted by the population most all and are to be treated by the doctors and the cubans are so mean free medicines all over outstrip them now that is the more whereas in the west this didnt come to site move the to maintain sanctions against iran or venezuela which is still to be incomplete be discussed stick though this is still going on when those in the higher world is facing this crisis in fairness to morris johnsons Foreign Office and a stand that the British Government have thanked the cuban government for taking the ship the braemar into port but certainly no condemnation from here about the u. S. Sanctions on the island i want to get on to some of those other issues a bit later and todays anniversary of the iraq war but youre also a novelist and putting your novelist hat on how do you characterize near liberal culture and art given the fact that most peoples cultural imagination of a pandemic is really from hollywood and from films that what we have to go on well i mean you know its a lot of the culture today obviously is dominated by a form of neo liberalism. Ill courage is individualists some of the most group has sort of you know this and be worshiped of 1st celebrities then someone extremely well known on television or a very strong. Actor is almost greeted as a dog and this is really deep deep you know become much much worse so that allow us. To. To 40 yes so this. Proves venice people almost not completely from thinking collectively and actually its not tell by the technology either the old internet revolution that a state in place encourages individual ism of course it needs i mean the number of people you run into on the buses all the tubes or on pavement so even on their bikes they see you know from the noises of the real world if i can put it like that their eyes sealed off from what is going on around them because theyre concentrating on ones that are normal on the singles grange now it neednt be like this but that is what it is but and i think in it so im strange frightening eerie way what we are witnessing now is people beginning to think again beyond themselves holy wall is you know produce the old film like contagion what does that do it just creates korea i mean the thing is not to create fear but to create hope not to create best 70 but to encourage people to be to be active and they is now at the station response to this crisis i mean someone wrote from send up all saying that here in south korea and in japan the detainee is testing testing the entire population regularly and not banning contact with each other except physical contact so there are many many different ways of looking at it from the fact that the chinese themselves. Bought it was not a single new peers to be recorded anywhere in the country shows that actually in the interests of who are maybe. And have been a factor anyway but what about the United States where you dont even have 3 elephants deeply shocking the richest most powerful country in the world got untreated spock relation because of capitalist doctrine us and the one candidate and binning for a. National Health Service in the United States is most likely to be defeated by a Sleepy Joe Biden so its a very weird big job but i think there are lessons to be i think many people will learn im saying that if this is what you have to do in emergencies why cant you change the way in we treat live well hollywood at least though is how a lot of people describe what happened 17 years ago today when the world woke up to the pictures of the u. S. And u. K. Bombing of baghdad why is it still relevant what happened in 2003 why is it still relevant to all our lives right now because its still going on thats the 1st reason that it was 17 years ago that was iraq. And the. Comments that are being inflicted on this country the brutality the cruelty the u. S. Do not to by. Doing Everything Possible to find shias from sudanese one day playing with the shia giving them. Which makes your arm the central are in the region and then suddenly blaming other forces for it they did it they did it now theyre touting iran and theyre. Basically using the saudis to control the sunni population. And most important to a whole describing the social infrastructure of that country. That is will did it disaster doubtless a mess my friend noomi klein calls it that its all the pain in iraq they just royally in the country and if you think about it today well the entire world is thinking about coronado wires i have absolutely no doubt and i can say this with confidence that the Health Service created by the iraqi series of iraqi governments was one of the best of the middle east so no repeat much better able to cope with this resent the moment in iraq a wall to trigger off another war. In the region. Syrian. War there created Massive Movement of populations in refugees this war is still going on even as all of europe keep them and is appealing to the United States to withdrew all its troops from the region that is being ignored you talk to many iraqis to do of all political persuasions and they will say it openly we are much better off under our 2nd that is what they say can i just say can i get a dowry if anyone thinks youre an apologist for Saddam Hussein you made me work on a program in the eightys about thatchers support for Saddam Hussein what is it like actually personally given that you came under pressure for that channel of our program because he was an ally of britain and then over the air if it switches mattered for folks we would join for cham for if you remember or serve the architecture of fear and we were it was an ultra Political Program showing those who built these giant danticat monumental statues of a model from so the old arms went like this and dominate. Especially in the military or. Areas the parade grounds and we were doing a critical piece of this and we came under a lot of pressure not to do it i remember. When you or someone else researching that program rack up the company in basingstoke in an area in england. Which did it for baddies big arms made created them and then shipped the monster but its out of this and why aint trying this its affrightedly. So many of us who are pro critical of. When he was actually involved. What then attacked for opposing a iraq war you live in a strange world priorities are decided by your rules and decided depending on whom the United States a settled on as the enemy of the month and disses become an enemy of the poor need be to get kits i mean if you think the iraq war that american soldiers are still that libya has been destroyed that syria is trying to recover from an horrific civil war then afghanistan is still occupied all of these holes of lasted longer than the 1st and 2nd world wars will to get and they carry on and what it angers will be is that citizens in most of the western world a Europe North America sleep or kerry day basically ignore the lot their governments and their countries have been doing to the middle east which isnt as state of. Recreate destruction on many many levels politically socially economically culturally when the palestinians left with. Absolutely not true basically supported by the United States israel and egypt receiving huge subsidies to this day for acquiescing in one has been out to make sure the loser. In some members rebel all souls of. Monsters are emerging from the afterlife of this war people who say attack isis thats the worst group ever who created it how did it come about alqaeda was still present in iraq under Saddam Hussein and it went in with the american troops and the troops of other countries supporting them so its not difficult to to to draw a direct link between the bombing of both berg all those years ago and the state of the middle east today britain of the United States of course to this day completely did i agree a thing i says day ash tag ill stop you there more from jerry gulley after this short break. Thinking of getting a new puppy once weve got an. Ally in our jail things happen and you know why are you going to use a crate with the end of the world. Freaking out in the wall and is afraid of anywhere near it thousands of breeding dogs i hate into your lane conditions on puppy i mean 67 years you know theyve ever locked up in cage outside you see no protection from the weather the heat you know the courtier of the rain the snow the founder nothing they have no protection. Because. Its. Across the us cruel puppy mills are supported by dog shows and. Dollars most of the poppies are coming from these large Scale Factory farming kind of operations are being sold at stores even giant good businesses are involved like cargill and im certain there has been a shocking amount of the organizing opposition to adverts to increase the standards of care for dogs bred in commercial breeding facilities most of that opposition is coming from agricultural groups and industries that have nothing to do with dogs dont buy dog on a hearty. Welcome back im still here with tariq ali you were speaking at rallies the Largest Global demonstration in history was against the iraq war alas does it not show that protest marches do not stop wars like the one that happened 17 years ago today and what difference was iraq to vietnam because obviously mick jagger and the Rolling Stone sang about your opposition to the vietnam war how is it different i think the main difference is in what happened to the world in the ninetys in my opinion the fact that these soviet union collapsed that china and went the way it did created a huge wave of good moralize nation evil amongst people who basically didnt serve all these governments but saw them as creating us face between 2 blocks and in that space we can all function and live be critical of all your aside we want to do. That counterbalance disappeared the United States book game the end of our him on a global scale and people failed them and alternatives to the iraq iraq war demonstrations in my opinion was of. 1st sign that people were searching for Something Else 1st day by saying dont make war on iraq and these demonstrations were huge in your book if we look back on it over a 1000000 people in london 2000000 people in madrid nearly 3000000 in rome over 200002 new york hundreds of thousands all over and the phony ship cargo every American City in provincial capital state capital was infected and effected bad desire to stop the war they were ignored and one reason they were ignored is that they had no following and little support in parliament when you have the republicans and the democrats waging war. And supporting it when you have too many black band Prime Minister in britain the conservative opposition supporting the war then you know you can have 2 or 3000000 people and you know that its a reality of it and been never came out again and those numbers i remember saying at the big demonstration theyre no longer were all trying to fight against the war dont imagine it wont take place or words to that effect and really more obscure with this start bombing where we didnt we couldnt them all satinder but effectively they got away with it but it will be wrong to draw from this the conclusion their protest is useless it may not always be effective but creating a different Public Opinion is extremely important i am not now and nothings being done. And these really occupation has been sanctified by a crime back and terror de facto by the European Union days no chance of the palestinians getting any form of state even the most not only. The present time nothing happens the world is. That total ghetto completely wrecked by disease the Palestinian Authority has got so used to collaboration with the israelis that they basically dont know what to do when they oppose whats playing now i mean they participated in creating this situation where the british well it was not a marketplace thats what i say but that doesnt mean we stop arguing your baiting mobilising i mean life would be awful if one just became well the british the labor party his ministers obviously committed us to war in iraq 17 years ago obviously. Protecting israel arguably after the after the Jeremy Corbyn years why do you think that this same labor party as it were is so keen to reinvite people who are associated with the iraq war back even to the party including i mean care started a leading figure once tony blairs head of war propaganda Alistair Campbell back in the labor party is this Opposition Party does it understand what youve been saying well i think there are 2 things one has to see about a party what is the insurrection on little girl insurrection of the Young Country and me or bill interim our our as fracture. In my opinion and momentum became exclusively crude machine its not exclusively 80 percent of it through our low there mick in addition to that also doing a lot of political campaigning political education etc so that the strength of traditional live gruesome which is that the only thing we do which is we know elections is known back in falls the left was given a chance the left was defeated not even going to ask. Searching for why the left was defeated in refusing to accept their need was because labor joined him all the parliamentary moorings to prevent a referendum from being implemented to care starmer let me just say obviously associated according to the un with the persecution of julian a son church from whom and because of whom we know so much more about iraq than we have a did back then how frightened are you for Julian Assange can i just as the founder of wiki leaks given hes in belmarsh prison and governors of prisons in this country obviously are worried about the spread of coronavirus im extremely worried about truly moon for many many. I mean initially it seemed that they were imposing a regime not really cheating on him in that prison which could have led to him know the depths that his order number of doctors said and then the governor of the prison. Brutish rager who none of the judges wanted to try to change because its not neagle thats the governors domain which is not good for breast baring befall them is not an offense state to give evidence they have every right to challenge. The governor of the prince who julian is deliberately being mistreated the case is completely manufactured new cement so the un report on torture has made a very powerful intervention saying that the what took place in sweden when he was accused of rape something you always do was defending crap not processed and designed to discredit them and lose all which was relatively successful i think many people seem to prove that but the fact is this accusation against judy. On Security Matters is completely bizarre and everyone else it is the americans know its the only when they can get him back into the states the british and know that this is a political decision it has nothing to do with the law and im going along with it and i hope that some sense prevails when the case goes to the Supreme Court and this concrete because it is quite shocking what has happened to julie and i hope years said were to go to mess a many many years ago as known to a few lessons. From that and i think this is something wait show even Boris Johnson who is being the most of his life we journalists should understand if you agree to. What the americans are asking you to do i mean to do it very. Exposed war crimes tomorrow it could affect other journalists who spose other things which the United States didnt want to expose an american soldier already have said washington is dead any foreign journalists the u. S. Constitution doesnt apply to them so they can pick anyone up and take their over to washington to be tried since most governments do their bidding and eat certainly the torture has been written about people who watch our interviews with meals melt of the un special rapporteur on torture better if one can forgive a media in a Coronavirus Crisis for not covering the sun is not covering the the continued bombing of iraq backed by britain of by the United States in the past few days. There is that just nation being passed through parliament and if its not martial law its military immunity legislation. What do you think about why boris ransom is keen on personal immunity for british soldiers is it somehow emblematic of british intervention 3 mile island to iraq absolutely. Clear you want to stay out late a situation where british soldiers are immune from. Prosecution i mean this is something weve all to against in many countries where the military is also a little part of the military shouldnt out these days its a big call to against in the United States where many antiwar activists want to us officers involved in massacres from be