The child this as a pandemic was raging through the world i mean it really kind of defines any kind of sensibility go ahead alex or i think its i think thats right i mean its completely well actionable thats not to say that the chinese did everything perfectly its the problem as that you know og governments in britain and the United States had reacted for all this and i was just reading an extraordinary article that look in the london times cataloguing the fact that for 38 days the British Government was basically on equal completely on the gauge with the problem and all Prime MinisterBoris Johnson skipped. Crawling cyst meetings to discuss this so you know what do you do when youre failing when people thousands of people all dying when your hospitals are overflowing and when you dont have enough. Protective equipment all closing for hospital stuff what you have in britain you blame outsiders and you blame china because of course china is the great rival and competitor and its also shorting really managed to get this epidemic under control which is what we all seek merely failing to do so that makes this incredibly angry and of course you also blame the enemy who is always the consistence call the invariable the enemy which is russia we should have no role in this whatsoever the russians are providing help to italy they must be doing it to some sinister purpose if the russians are doing things better than we are that mess mean that they had their up to theyre up to no good again hand we have this constance pumping out all this propaganda which im afraid im sorry to say this i think theres still an especially the n. T. Chinese part of it is still wanting to gain some traction with the group their proper lation as people become very angry with the situation but if im so sad you know in reading the British Press i came across to new terms that you know just this morning ok im virus quality and cyber gulag apparently thats whats going on in the country ive lived in i didnt know that you know the guardian is all knowing and apparently here the interesting thing about china is that were getting worse seeing a reversion or a return of this kind of cold war paradigm of the enemy communism the soviet union not our values you know ive lived through it i remember it very very well and all 3 of us did ok but the interesting thing here in this case is that the west under the leadership of the United States had almost virtually no economic contact with the soviet block it was it was miniscule miniscule. The and and we you couldnt use that as any kind of leverage and that was always one of the arguments against these guys and we use the term that we use now it with it was sanctioned it was sanctioned for 70 years ok with the be the exception of the of the time during the 2nd world war you cant use the same paradigm against china one of your largest trading partners and one of the most to keep one of the most important key players in International Trade and in finance and i could go on and on i mean. One point you can have an emotional reaction will make you feel good because of the of failings of your leaders ok fine all right thats so that happens all the time my kids it doesnt america a rational. Agreement but thats what people did ok someone else but if you want to blame china then there are actually implications lately china and retaliation reparations what is that all mean in your mind go ahead. Well its interesting that you are basically right when youre say that there was not march economic interaction between the west and the congress of the soviet war with the north exceptional congress which was a member of the wall the bank even before 989 since the early eightys ironically hungary now is criticized by the European Union if you read the negative i get go see in the European Press the number of negative logical saval of the gary in government is much bigger. Negative i could go to some voluntary of the countries which actually a software the biggest losses you know the most careless countries such as spleen all the u p and the reason these i dont want to call you know the e. U. We just doesnt like the door but the fact that the victor orbited was more effective than Boris Johnson in that in containing the deceased. Its not important what is important is that there are bigger organ is not our guy and Boris Johnson is our guy you know or at least he was until the breaks so basically youre right about china its just amazing how hypocritical of the United States can be criticizing china and you know the. Mr biden and mr trump the require i called food from china well when did the United States provide food your school on the war in iraq won the war zone in syria or in leave the United States did not provide the full disclosure and not oh you know the Washington Post is writing china has pulled out a lot of dahlan on january 23rd and it marshaled resourceless s. All right theyre doing regime can well the huge problem is that the socalled democratic regimes as it transpired simply did not have a lot of course but the will of course but the bats you know the didnt prepare for for anything that they didnt prepare for a war they didnt prepare for an epidemic they just had a minimum of that so that they called extract maximum of my need from the patients and the system groundball yes it could be expecting that but i dont see you bring that even though. Its a really good point because i mean you kind of job here is what your your your your usual mantra which i always welcome on this program about ideology and youre absolutely right but you know what no ones going to deny on this program in our viewers are going to agree china is a very ideological blight but so is the west ok in just in a different way here ok alex and we i mean again the same question to you i mean you know theres this talk of decoupling after 40 years of this globalization with china as a. Ajor partner i mean just get your head around 40 years ago we barely had stacks on china you remember that barely how they were not the boss of the world i mean and now thats because china is a very real peer to the United States to the west its a peer and that is something that no one thought was conceivable 40 years ago now before you went to the question i want to reiterate what you said in your 1st answer this does not absolve china of its behavior before during this crisis here are and everyone should be held accountable and we need transparency here but you know going from challenging their transparency to decoupling one of the Major Economies in the world thats essentially an act of war ok go ahead alex its going to make it an economic problems on top of the Health Crisis that we already have because of course the way you going to deal with both economic problems theres a standing for this Health Crisis and how crisis itself is by putting resources internationally you cant do that if you exclude porteous by some estimates the well by by all estimates the will sink 2nd biggest economy and the worlds biggest manufacturing power and of course a country which hires an enormous Financial Resources but you talk about peter the fact that 40 years ago we barely registered barely registered and thats absolutely true but that of course is the release of what we perceive all these tensions is this enormous roets of china in terms of wealth in terms of power in terms of global reach in terms of attractiveness around the world some things that western governments and western societies on the more ideologically minded people in the west. Had been extremely unnerved by i cant help but think that what has happened is that this particular Health Crisis has acted as a catalyst what. Concerns the are all up to the surface here and thats our main we say this now because yes maybe not using the word concerns but i would say neurosis i think that might be you hurt. Me because the west has never had an international period for 500 years something does not compute people cant understand it here daemon let me go to you before we go to the break here i mean also with the demonization of russia weve had specifically since 2014 but i mean recent phobia goes way way back but me in a policy sense in the saying since 2014 weve seen russia and china become closer together china is now in the hot seat right now being criticized what do you see you see russia and china coming more and more close and this is something that is actually a function of the demonization and the the recent bobbie of the comes out of the west go ahead human. Well im fortunately these. Kind of demonization of what china and russia started it all on a goal before trunking to power up. You know just lets remember the facts you know mr obama when he established that he is a specific quatenus in which then what now we can revolve he excluded china and russia. So it was supposed to be transpacific but somehow it didnt go all over very important country as you know some would say the most important country is on the western side of the pacific. Now missed it by then is is blas didnt draw for raising chinas transparency you know trump said something good about china. When china really is they dont know all their new wireless. You jump in here i have to go have to go to a hard break ok were going to go to short break im out of that short break well continue our discussion on china bashing. Something minimization planted on the stone containing a little spark that sent me i am. Not going to join that i desired to know. How much although the. Local just in the. Live. Show was still. A new prince not just the most noble not on one level so that was too stubborn to teach students. It would just. Seem wrong well we just dont all. Get to shape out just days after. And in the game equals betrayal. When so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. Welcome back to cross Things Considered im Peter Lavelle to mind you were discussing china bashing. Ok i want to go back to how it sit in london one of the things i find very very interesting and im actually quite delighted about it is that now this least some elements of the political elites in the west particularly in the United States want to point the finger at china now everyone across the board has to reconsider globalization because this is how we got here ok this is exactly how we got here and and i want to just pick up with something that demon had to say earlier you know its called the pandemic for a reason its cross of the entire world you cant fix a pen demick independently you have to have an International Perspective not a globalist one here but i can hear me its very interesting because over the last couple of weeks in lockdown in warranty and in my own home i brought on a lot of liberal economists and they did get digital you know i started saying well what about you know economic nationalism in the in the what the in the frailties the daily years of globalization what about the renewed attraction of having economic sovereignty everybody starts wiggling into a little bit of us what coming down ok because these are all obvious questions we have to ask go ahead out. Can i just come back to a point that was made before which is of course the democratic societies supposedly have been less effective. In that resort says than supposedly also retired ones that is completely not true that is a complete misunderstanding of Historical Perspective democratic societies used to be extremely efficient at mobilizing resources the reason they are not successful today is because theyve become far less democratic as global oil. Has trade. Powerful financial all the dark is in the way in western societies that are inimical to things like manufacturing. All those can do things and have been using globalization in order to train church their own positions the heart of the world Financial System that huge war globalization is now International Cooperation such as we used to have was saw in states with strong vibrant economies based often on you know use it with Strong Manufacturing base is able to cooperate with each other in a sensible way to deal with joint problems thats what used to happen its become thermal difficult now because globalization has weakened economies and societies and it has also created tension in the International System which had not existed before so that people feel deeply suspicious of each other they are extremely concerned about what you know the United States might be doing what china might be doing in ways which once upon a time would not have a recent global hunch that they should is part of the problem it is why this thing has spread so fast its why this thing its improving so difficult to develop both a coherent reaction at state level and an International Reaction also. You know also its its showing vulnerabilities ok. Its one of the its some of the weaknesses that weve seen in this race every time you know John Maynard Keynes said this is very interesting about the Great Depression when is it when the Great Depression started we started seeing the low. Well of corruption the frailties and the inefficiencies of the market that so many people worship ok that 22000000 people that just applied for unemployment that this was something that had nothing to do with them and theyre going to pay a very high price and im on this program were going to keep an eye on that ok because this crisis is far from over the pandemic may be stomped out and it will be but the economic crisis is going to stay with us and its all because of globalization and we need to have that conversation diva let me go to you because i think its really important to discuss here you know ive seen in American Media people all riled up about whos to blame who needs to pay for this year but theres always the absence of knowledge or introspection is that the Chinese Government has to face its people is well ok and and we you see this war of words on bowl signs you know the thing is something that you and i have noticed living in russia is that you know when john mccain was a lie all he would get up on the stump and he would start saying the worst possible things about russia and then Russian National television which is subtitle it in this is exactly what an american senator says about us and they get right to the audiotape i mean i mean john mccain was one of the greatest soft power tools russia ever act god bless his soul ok but the same thing is happening right now ok when you have just bluster coming out on cable t. V. Its just be they just put it right on to Chinese Television saying this is what they think about us they had human. Lair is another example you know i think there is a logical rivaling making statements about russia just recently in the New York Times there and im the guy pickle. Who deals so well on the war against American Science and in the soft i dont believe its sad that we can actually. Helps brad deadly diseases in the United States well that was too much even for the belly and for once in eternity were dead including the good god for the steel garcia. Yesterdays and you know where taken by the way where getting to know more and more interesting news of all of this to you a dossier you know read by recently published you know that transcripts of the conversations which m. B. Ice Confidential Sources had with papadopoulos actually it provoking him and just saying something bad about russia and making the link between trump and russia which but almost didnt want to make that was there was none but anyway so coming back to what your just said its just amazing and what is very dangerous is that we found out we learn from mr obama that he believes this crap because of amerie tweeted this article headlined would use a lot of war against American Science so if it puts a huge question who was iranian the United States you know a person who can believe such awful crap you know how ill follow dead where obamas decisions on ukraine on syria let me remind you that trump so far has not started a single war a bomb or 2 my mike started 3 in levy in syria and in ukraine. And i agree completely and we said ok. Well i completely agree with alex i think its very important to say that efficiency. Is is not against your will proceed Democratic Congress very very efficient for example during their walled wars you know where you had to drop horse. Bats for the world it now will suddenly the reaches the countries in the world could not put out 100200000 bats thats just its one of the m. Or the amount they did when i come from the u. S. The u. S. Can spend over 700000000000. 00 a year on defense about nonexisting threats but they cant make face masks ok ok go figure all right go figure let me go to let me go to alex here i think that you know again theres the leads particularly in the media and in politics not so much in business because they have such deep ties with china right now thats why i dont think this is going to work because again you can blow off steam and say you know point fingers and makes you feel good but at the end of the day because the financial is a nation of the Global Economy that it was started