To stop this and more im joined by my guest to meet me bob its in moscow he is a political analyst and editor of you know just me internet project and in court we have Geoffrey Robertson he is americas professor of history at University College cork and a member of the Royal Irish Academy his latest book is churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the 2nd world war are gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want house appreciate it or i let me 1st go to a demon here in moscow you know dma here we go again this is almost like our tradition with our calling jeffrey we do this every single year commemorating victory in europe over fascism and for every single year that we do it we find ourselves in more and more in a revisionist mode here i mean as i understand as were sitting down doing our chat right now is it facebook has. And a colorized version of the of the soviet banner over europe the very very iconic one of showing victory in europe and you know ive searched around its a true story meaning what in the world is going on here the black and white version seems to be acceptable the color when not are there different meanings or is this a revision and sell and why in the world would anyone want to deny that iconic photograph its like the sailor kissing the young lady on times square in victory over japan i mean what is going on here go ahead well i dont know which exactly of which were acting exactly. We mean here more likely its their image or west obvious old europe which are not their advantage or rights which was basically the central issue of Central Power in the nazi germany so for decades there was no problem with a slat you know. Its a familiar image its like that you might or american soldiers would you not a flag. In the pacific during the war with japan you were going to cause a scandal here well basically a lot of russians on all thinking whats going on why that discrepancy and you had all 3 i mean the Jeffrey Roberts go ahead jeff you know everybody here this is exactly the photograph were talking about i. Think my goodness and here he has the props even for the program he had no idea it was going to ask is going to thats exactly it just to tell my office at the University Im going to get must mean that its a matter. Yeah so are we russians who are thinking why you describe in russia now is certainly. That the country oh well the west then the soviet union i will war well of course style we have a pluralistic edge if you do. History you know right now in russia you can hear and you can read any kind of stuff about the world war 2 from an apple down to you know stalinist revisionist you can get everything that makes us different from the west now were just one narrative seems to be related in the last year and my explanation is that the problem is with the new west and i go with you because its impossible that the same sad story would suddenly happen in separate independent countries that you would count that sexual for Marshall Cornish removed from prague and the czechs say it was just the local authorities who decided to do it you know then you have. You know facebook removed the scrawled on the cow right version of this for the facebook is based in the United States alas its not only against russia at the name of Franklin Delano roosevelt was removed from everywhere in poor unless people heard about. And there are every year rules about is still a National Hero in the night you know and thats the medicine just you know did the thing it says here i do it seems to me and i think jim is on to something it is an ideological approach to all this but we cant deny its simply ludicrous to didnt 9 the existence of historical figures now the difference is that glorify them ok i get that all right but you know its almost like the the iconic picture of yeltsin where you have you know Stalin Churchill and roosevelt and you know in our early in the in this post cold war environment you know somehow that is sacrilegious because youre putting stalin on stage here and im here to let me go to jeff i want you to can only get going on the point is here is that history is something we should learn from it i mean its just not a moral play in the presence go ahead you know what 1st announcement is not being done this historical revisionism because a long way back i mean almost as soon as the war has ended its history has been revised its going to launch you look for reasons so its nothing new to us knows it the present time its were in the face period of historic revisionism as you call it see connect it with the currents russias relations west and look at all of that current so you. Agree one point that david might look very much greater than russia these days you can say anything you like that he could actually pull any kind of extreme revisionist views anything at all shes actually much more serious bites for wool in russia than death there at the recent west but having said that you know it does more than one narrative in the west not treat we shouldnt exaggerate. The county influence of the western liberal me here and western liberal or at least we shouldnt underestimate too to the extent to which among popular consciousness is quite reasonable secret witness of the true facts of the will or wont watch in particular was. To throw somebody play going to read homey. Ok well but we didnt hear that jeff and then why are these it seems to me that their hate for the for the the majority of people the majority of media there is a new revisionist a narrative being pushed here but at the same time youre saying that among the population theres a level of awareness i think thats true but i think its getting smaller and smaller i used to teach at the university of california and you know young theyre supposed to be the cream of the crop and their knowledge was very scant and i have to worry that its even worse now because we have saving private ryan and you know we had i think yesterday the white house really giving credit to the United States you came for a victory over the nazis not obviously not mentioning a soviet union and one has to question is that intentional or is it just lack of knowledge finish up on that point jeff. If there are some countries countries now feel United States its probably a straight bat case of our expected oh no not only history will be starker or vicious narrative narrows originally to discredit comedy is just such a congressman naziism totalitarian lowest common kind of state nowadays across its political function is to discredit russia it is good just ready to see an end to create a contrast between the west marks in russian authoritarianism through a so you know guilt by association of russia with the soviet union with day to totalitarian pasta so thats whats going to kind of question this. Hour to this continent fish but its any right now its in poland says recognized. Lets actually be part of the contest yes about the slums and well i think i mean youve known me for a very very long time and thats always been my gripe is that its very difficult to talk about anything related to russia because its always about context and if you dont have basic facts then you dont have any context ok and thats the. Difficulty and discussing all this i mean you know there are the different narratives about the war ended 3 as a result of that war i mean ive always taken the position is that most of the soldiers that died didnt die for communism they died for mother russia they died to protect their families their tradition their language says the bill is ation the eye of the ideological stunt you can put its been there if you can put it there but i dont think thats the majority of the pitch opinion of the people that are there my opinion go ahead well i think there are people died for her right your reasons you know defend and russia and defending the soviet union not only russians but i think the main reason was so why well you know the people realize that if hitler wins im not going to survive and. What happened later was that. Well crude shocking to power hugh ford style in years and by stunning it means i mean the problem of the character of star is the fall in basically our crew shot removed style and from all their narrative about the war in the same way it started removing hyun or trotsky from the narrative about the 1970 revolution so what happened on the wooden was now freedom team now you can be astonished you can say that you think stalin you know was very important that he won that war you can be and i study and the majority or if you want russian dead and theres a lot of movies about the war being made now and each of them mentions repression so well in the west they say or study has been. What is being started back that is such a big lie. Because you know the way crucial congressional ford study is worse than it is you know i was born in 1970 i remember that i 1st saw a study and teacher when i was 13 in one 1803. 00 on the windshield of a car you know that was wrong you know whatever we think about stalin as a figure it was wrong to remove his image to remove all memory about him and now the west wants us to repeat eat the same thing you know to demonize the earth and there im returning to this i dont want to cause the nyquil the more that ive always told the west point out to liberals i wouldnt call it our western i you would you why because its not in the western tradition its very if you want and they should experience you know shakespeare has dimensional characters and the problem with them or the western narrative is that it does not allow them mention of characters and there its. Narrative that it was the same time if data thats true. And theyre weak in this war it was he is nor it was he has the will power it was he hasnt made it to well im sitting here we go the beer there is the debate there i would say they deserve a union on the war in spite of stalin ok but if he were just demonstrating to our viewers that there is a debate here i see jeff flock being in the in his Little Corner their heads every very good operate of everything afraid not look at it equal i dont know i think i just. Used to change Michael Stipe last yes thought he was a brutal dictator but he was also good to see the most equal posted something. Like well. Known site or well the west the west western democracy well hitler that observe a 100 times a day but right there then i can talk to you statements in that book ok well i mean it good that will keep were just printed on it is a he made a very important part the whitish contest is historical revisionism she is swedish not by producing a cunt political or large to china just a way to contest it with the start of truth and we can start a true future by context contradiction constant stuff going on he might not like so yeah we have to talk down to sort of victory and such but we also have to focus on the nazi pact we. Were going to do after the break were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on remembering victory in europe i mean 5 years ago today. 1st of all that sugar has created excess body fat in the majority of people worldwide and that impairs immunity and therefore makes us more vulnerable to infection and during this period when were more isolated in our all. We. Want to eat more sugar thats really the worst thing people can do to janets coming in is is clearly is is just very clear that its those that her. Symptoms of other facts of the outcome or abilities and its those individuals that are coming into the hospitals its those individuals that are suddenly leaving us. And its ultimately because they just have all of this regulation it was like there were medical health. Time after time corporations repeat the same mantra sustainability its very important to accelerate the transition to sustainable transport sustainability stay number man on a more equitable and sustainable well. They claim their production is completely hamas. Because. It does not the Companies Want us to feel good about buying their products while the damage is being done far away and this is Something Else just as he went any minute i mean look. This is the moon you missed me do me man im stunned seemed to be based on just looks so good and. Well that across town where all things are considered im Peter Lavelle reminder were talking about victory over passions some in europe 75 years ago. Ok lets go back to the im a here in moscow here right before we went to the break jeffrey brought up the nazi soviet pact of course this is a hotly debated today and with good reason i would say because it kind of flushes out the historical facts the jeff was getting into before were into that you know given you and i have talked about this so many times here and and as you pointed out to me very eloquently yes that pact that exists and there were secret protocols we know that is part of the historical record but the way its being framed right now is that theres something the soviet union is culpable any unique way because of that agreement but that isnt so most countries in the end europe had some kind of Security Agreement treaty with nazi germany before hostilities broke out in september 1039 you know where im going with this go ahead jim well you are absolutely right now. That our well the Russian Orthodox church recently a state said that these who or what the punishment were seems and what people were angry and you may sad how calm you know all all of these millions of people were simple well no but diplomats diplomats representing these countries yes because basically every county in europe with the exception may go through life in some way and look what happened in czechoslovakia yeah ok soundbite cooperate with. Between 1033 and then make you what you want so its if you morals if you want how you dont create evil without huge wants it wants us we have. Been you know this. Like you we dont have it youre all. Our study and your shape in france you know we can study and event drop and that is reproduced now in billions and billions of corpus but we have this nature or Churchill Roosevelt and started you mentioned it well im very concerned about the speech because the west and i you all idjit well even that resent dont ask graham evidence because you know here is roosevelt and judge you see them next to that mill and you know or they will simply proceed with that because that will not suit their narrative you know the problem with radical ideologies and the west now as a regular. Is there they twist the past what the political interest will be they removed i dont let it evidence i thought it to be explained in terms i thought and thats what the soviet state with history the future is certain but the past is not exactly a lot of things that we are now saying of thought crimes in the west now there is no sexier subsonic right now in russia but there are more and more kinds of thought crimes in the west and the problem is that these new western i go if youre this are to liberalism or no member is what we call it it or parades by images by hollywood year image you know stalin is the will and so that means that he is doing what the war started and he too are to blame for the war to megalomaniacs i have been reading it in dolans own books now in people seem to disregard the war would not have been possible without millions of people preparing for the william lee so the problem is much bigger than just to make of the many acts but this is the way more than western aid ordinary moves its amos they always find a leader whom they demonize you know our star or Saddam Hussein you know. They say you know we murdered him basically ok they dont say mother we removed him and then everything. Defined so they may try to apply the same crime to ordinary the world war 2 which was a very costly story very complicated. But thats why are you concerned about this its your study and im trying to show it shows that basically people very different beliefs would come to an agreement and fight on be evil and i dont think thats what i mentioned thats what i meant and what i did production we had a pandemic we have different good leaders and different political systems different worldviews but this pandemic doesnt care what your politics are but we cant have Global Solidarity and im not that many people think this quest to work internationalism because globalism is it that it doesnt go far i mean you. Have been go ahead yes our it will actually fucking michael on this on the show but you know my very 1st book which of course of the 30 years ago was called young honey a lot still has its about the nazis are back now you know right he was right when you say everyone is business with the nazis in a line 90 it could very light still sort it b. C. Such as you know. Dismemberment check check check their list there is something that this kind of unique about the nazi thought that is no equivalents to that pact any secret project did have some rather radical consequences not get getting away from it you know excluding red occupation opponents. September 9th im not ok you can say that the territories that were taken but red army wont really postsurgery as they western or Russia Ukraine or united to retrieve. You know to this certainly a case to be made 0. 80 of the nazis in the nazis were attacked and its a very complicated set of historical events which unfolds as a result of the leading into the chilly beijing. Jeffrey jamie youre not here and i dont think you need a defense i say i wouldnt i wouldnt phrase it that way a defense of it when i am i would say is if there is a reasonable explanation to understand why a bad thing happened because if you look at munich you have the western powers basically destroying the post world war one International System unilaterally destroying a sovereign state which they had implicitly and explicitly said they would defend and then you go all the way up to august 39th and you get a more under regis form of it but it is precedent is set for me its the same price and it may be even if you just have to agree i mean thats why i really get too sick and tired of people moralizing about an International System that the western powers had corrupted before but to outsiders nazi germany and the soviet union were involved in it ok this isnt the way back you know and