According to neils melzer the un special rapporteur on torture who visited julian a songe in prison is being held in londons atory s high security belmarsh prison for publishing classified documents which exposed u. S. War crimes in iraq and afghanistan is being indicted on 17 counts under the 1917 espionage act a low he is not a u. S. Citizen and wiki leaks is not a u. S. Based publication charged would be unauthorized possession and dissemination of classified material something that has been performed by countless journalists including myself when i worked for the New York Times and publishers over the decades. The such case is a frontal assault on the 1st amendment it will be used should a songe be extradited tried and sentenced in the United States where he faces the possibility of 175 years in prison to shut down any press investigations into the centers of power joining me to discuss the importance and ramifications of the a songe case is Marjorie Cohen professor america at Thomas Jefferson school of law where she taught from 1901 to 2016 and a former president of the National Lawyers guild she edited and contributed to the books the United States and torture interrogation incarceration and abuse along with drones and targeted killing legal moral and geo political issues so marjorie lets just open with a summary of what. Julian and wiki leaks did and then im going to ask you to explain the u. S. Case thats been brought against him well in 20102011 wiki leaks published classified documents which were provided by u. S. Army Intelligence AnalystChelsea Manning and they contained 90000. 00 reports about the war in afghanistan including the afghan war logs which documented civilian casualties by Coalition Forces that more than the u. S. Military had previously reported wiki leaks also published 400000 field reports about the iraq war the iraq war lore logs and over 15000 previously unreported deaths of iraqi civilians and the systematic murder torture rape and abuse by the iraqi army and authorities that were ignored by u. S. Forces wiki leaks also published the guantanamo files which were 779. 00 secret reports providing evidence of systematic violations of the geneva conventions and the convention against torture where the us authorities abused nearly 800 men and boys ages 14 to 89 perhaps the most notorious or certainly the most famous revelation that wiki leaks made from what manning had provided them was called what is known as the collateral murder video which depicts a u. S. Apache attack helicopter killing 12 civilians and wounded 2 children on the ground in baghdad in 2007 the helicopter then fired upon and killed the people trying to rescue the wounded finally a u. S. G. Drove over the bodies cutting the man in half that constituted for. 3 separate war crimes under the geneva conventions the uniform code of military justice and the Army Field Manual now julian the son has been charged under the espionage act in the United States in an indictment stemming from those revelations of war crimes and the extradition treaty chris that you referred to. Between the United States and the u. K. Says extradition shall not be granted if the offense for which the extradition is requested is a political offense so the trouble ministration is trying to get britain to extradite Julian Assange to d the United States to say stand trial on this indictment under the espionage act but there is an exception for political offenses and its the u. K. Courts that decide whether or not to extradite Julian Assange theres no clear definition of political offense but it routinely includes treason sedition espionage and offenses against state power and exposure of war crimes is clearly a political offense so he should not be extradited but when he had a hearing before the judge who wont ultimately make the decision about extradition and she denied his attorneys request for bail because he is in danger of being interest and now with the coven virus and being in in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day but one hour a day hes with 40 other people in a confined space hes got preexisting Health Conditions that make him even more vulnerable but she did at that hearing the judge to turn him around and said that she was not going to release him because there was a high risk of extradition in other words she was tipping her hand that she is leaning toward granting the extradition talk about the espionage act 117 wilson passes that. Its not only its a no the you have roughly the equivalent of the British Foreign secrets act its about passing information to a Hostile Force the enemy but its used against dissidents i believe its used as was debs charged on of the position act or the espionage act probably under sedation act but its also use. Against the left its talk about how that has become the blunt instrument in the hands of the u. S. Government to go after a songe and what its original intent was yes its in a ranch its original intent was to to prosecute spying and this is not spying what julian assigns did was to be a journalist to fulfill the freedom of the press which of course are our 1st amendment pretax and yet obama also used the espionage act as well obama went after more whistleblowers than any other president before him but obama did not charge julian a son because he was worried that what Julian Assange and wiki leaks did was also done by many other outlets such as the New York Times their spiegel the guardian a wound and they were worried that this would share the right to report on National Security matters so even the Obama Administration which went after whistleblowers in an unprecedented way didnt bring charges against Julian Assange but we should be clear that the wiki leaks material that you just outlined was published in all of these publications and when obama went after the i think it was 8 or 9 whistleblowers kiriakou and others he did use the espionage act which i believe up until the Obama Administration had only been used 3 times since 1917 against whistleblowers including Daniel Ellsberg whose case eventual collapse is that correct that is correct yes. So yeah and you know but had i had. So talk about how they have used the espionage how theyve kind of crammed the espionage act which is you say you know in essence about spying how theyre kind of legally deforming it to go after julian. Well theyre saying that these revelations put certain into it confidential informants in jeopardy it turns out thats not really the case. And and therefore help the enemy and also course it puts the United States in a bad light because its evidence of war crimes the United States you know does not like to be seen as as war criminals even though weve seen the commission of war crimes from the Bush Administration through the Obama Administration and now in the in the Trump Administration this is a bipartisan effort in part because wiki leaks also released the pedestrian emails exposing the hypocrisy of the Hillary Clinton campaign others not a lot of daylight between the trumpet ministration and the democratic leadership is there well i have something that needs to be clarified chris is that Hillary Clintons emails were revealed through a freedom of information act request filed in 2012 by the nonprofit citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington they were made searchable by both wiki leaks and the wall street journal and the desk to emails were retrieved by spearfishing whatever that means im not a techie a spearfishing operation not by wiki leaks even james comey said that wiki leaks probably got the emails via an intermediary and wiki leaks as you said was not the only publication to receive and publish the d. N. C. Documents intercept politico and others publish them as well so this this whole issue of the d. N. C. And hurting Hillary Clintons campaign i think is really a red herring and debt people need to understand the facts surrounding that but nevertheless the democratic. You know hierarchy is as dedicated to extraditing and trying assad as the. And there isnt this is not a kind of theres no partisan debate over this is there no theres not unfortunately and there should be and i think that because of these myths about the d. N. C. And Hillary Clintons emails the democratic leadership is is upset with wiki leaks and and they dont want to be course you know theyre there timid anyway about things like this and so i think yes there is no cush back and thats really really a tragedy because as you said this prosecution and extradite extradition prosecution of julian a son is just. Really is a stab in the heart of the 1st amendment freedom of the press and people need to understand that now there was a kind of ramping up of the effort to extradite julian when wiki leaks published some internal documents from the cia about their ability to read traffic this got pompei on the trumpet ministration to. Essentially begin to push with greater firmer towards the extradition explain what happened there well. As i said the Obama Administration chose not to indict julian assigns you but the trumpet ministration once they saw that this was coming close to home with hail it cetera they became and you know that that. When wiki leaks published the you know a Clinton Emails after that actually trump said oh i love wiki leaks isnt that the leaks wonderful he was the best friend of wiki leaks but then when it comes closer to home and starts to implicate peo who is course the secretary of state then he decided ministration decided to go after julian songe great when we come back well continue our conversation with law professor mark recalling. The primary purpose of history is to understand the past as a guide to understanding the present and future of his regime not be damed is feeling goodness down just because a lot of history is painful and shameful so how do we find the right now and his dad to sign the right answer. When i want to show him wrong why dont we all just dont call. Me old yet to see how it just didnt come out to go and engage me because it trailed off. When someone find themselves worlds apart when just on the common ground. Welcome back to on contact we continue our conversation with a legal scholar and law professor Marjorie Cohen about the extradition of julian of songe i want to ask you about Chelsea Manning who. Although she wasnt pardoned but she was. Released from this track on incentives that she was given in a military prison was. Tried they tried to make her testify before a grand jury hearing to bolster their case against julian what would talk about that whats happening there and what the government is trying to do well. Chelsea manning actually did not break the law even though she was there was a plea bargain and she was sentenced to 35 years in prison after she did 7 years obama released her and community her sentence as he was leaving office but Chelsea Manning as a member of the military had a legal duty to report work crimes the Army Field Manual says every violation of the law of war is a war crime and the last war crimes is contained in the geneva conventions and the u. S. Army subject schedule number 27 dash one says its the obligation to report all violations of the law of war so chelsea went to her chain of command to no avail and to ask them to investigate the collateral murder video which was very very disturbing to her understandably but her. Superiors refused and the uniform code of military justice and this is important especially in the context now of the protests against the murder of george floyd and possible calling out of the military and whether. Whether members of the military will refuse orders to basically fire on their fent federal fellow citizens the unicom farm code of military justice sets forth the duty of a Service Member to obey lawful orders but that duty includes the concomitant duty to disobeyed unlawful orders and in order not to reveal classified information that contains evidence of work crimes would be an unlawful order and therefore Chelsea Manning had a duty to report those were crimes but she is still being harassed and she was called before the grand jury. A stance of play of investigating julian a songe and wiki leaks she stood on principle in the in the courageous tradition of many people over the years and refused to testify and was region and actually attempted suicide and it was only after her Suicide Attempt that she was released and they said oh well were disbanding the grand jury anyway we really dont need her testimony anyway but shes not off the hook at any moment she could be rearrested really harassed one of as dan ellsberg has said so eloquently she is one of the most courageous whistleblowers in the history of whistle blowing in the United States across you mention many others and theres Edward Snowden and there are many many others but she has she she did the right thing she reported war crimes which she had a duty to do and and she has. Based nothing but harassment and trauma ever since and refuses to help the government to convey actually in the signage why is that issue important for the government some kind of evidence that julian was complicit in the fast why is that an important legal issue for them well because wiki leaks did what many other newspapers did as well any and many other publications as weve said and in order to bring it out of the protected 1st amendment freedom of the press category they need to show that Julian Assange stole these documents and he did something above and beyond what the New York Times does speak alone the guardian did and they think that Chelsea Manning can help them prove that but she will not do that when from your observations how would you assess whats happening in the british courtroom as a legal scholar i think that you know of course the u. K. Government works hand in glove with the United States theyve done this for years they did it during the iraq war are partners in crime i call them with the with the u. S. Government and this judge who is supposed to be fair and impartial. Rates or is has has already tipped her hand about a decision that she should not have made yet on september 7th Julian Assange his extradition hearing will continue could go on for a few weeks evidence will be presented witnesses will be called she looks like she has prejudged the case and thats not the end of it once she. Once once that that happens there is also there are peals to the high court to the to the court of appeal to the European Court of human rights. If she actually if the judge grants extradition and says ok julie. The signs can be sent to the United States for trial in this indictment then there are several levels of appeal within the british system and then in the european system. Before any extra actual extradition would take place and meanwhile and i think we need to mention this chris Julian Assange his health is severely deteriorating and i think you did mention neils meltzer talked about that he mentioned psychological torture when julian was in the Ecuadorian Embassy in london for 7 years and had some Serious Health problems and the u. K. Government would not allow him to leave and go to a hospital which aggravated these medical conditions his health has severely deteriorated there is going to be there are going to be medical report submitted in the next month or 2 about his condition but there is another reason that Julian Assange should not be extradited aside from the political offense exception in the extradition treaty and that is the convention against torture and other cruel inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which says has a provision called no way for home which means that a person cannot be sent to another country where there is a substantial risk of being tortured and given the fact that Chelsea Manning when she was in custody was kept in solitary confinement for 11 months was stripped naked and made to appear before all the guards for inspection that amounted to certainly cruel inhuman and degrading treatment and the special u. N. Reports were said it probably amounted to torture as well but he was not allowed to interview people that would have would have provided evidence of that and so given the fact that thats the way Chelsea Manning was treated there is a substantial likelihood that if Julian Assange were extradited to the United States he too would be subject to torture and this would be. To cutely dangerous for him given hi