The other boxes in india. So it will be interesting. Its an election. You also to see russia, those us as india. Uh so it would be interesting to say its been a few months time. So now we see a lot of them there. Weve been congratulating mean to muddy and interesting and they are to correspond that runjun charmaya origin. Thank you to all right, thats gonna do it for me for now, but to stay with us, my colleague, karen will be in next in about half an hour with some more of the day. So please, sorry about the, [000 00 00;00] the, [000 00 00;00] the hello and welcome to cross talk. Were all things are considered. Im peter live out. Big talk empty words. How else to interpret the contradictory pronouncements coming out of european capitals on the subject of ukraine. Bluster and threats are not a coherent policy. In fact, it is an indication of panic. Meanwhile, remember russia does not bluff. It asked the cross talking ukraine. Im joined by my guest, Anthony Webber in word think he is an independent political commentator in belgrade. We go to stephen gaiety. He is a Research Associate at bell grades institute of european studies, and in lisbon we cross alexander guerrero. He is an International Legal analyst. Right. Gentleman cross talk roles and the fact that means you can jump in any time you want. And i always appreciate a steve, and let me go to you 1st. And in belgrade as an outside observer, like i am of all of this going on in europe a whos speaking for whom. And what is the message when it comes to ukraine . Steven, that is a very good question because we see a lot of move walkers here who are sending different messages. And i think that is because they are in between the maple agenda, which is escalade story. And if the situation to ukraine and with there are really 3 industries, were going better, they would probably even be more aggressive. And on the other side, they have their own people who have no idea why the, how are their armies already involved when it comes to sending aid and perhaps people. And they are especially not happy about the possibility of direct a war between these respective countries. In the rush, so that is why the politicians are jumping on on this hot rocks and trying to somehow navigate between between the agenda that they all have and, and their own population. So that is why we hear shots say one thing or on the other as well. Look around this name is been mentioned already, anthony, let me go to the only thing with chrome and, and napoleon have in common as they were both small men. Other than that, there is no similarity here. Why is the crown mousing off the way he does . Remember at the beginning of all this, he was the dog. Now hes turning around and calling anyone that disagrees with them, a coward. Whats the evolution of a crowd near as well hes, hes bullied back to the topics on multi site because hes downsizing from something thats the key piece. This is the role with the piece yet. Encouraging. Uh, the escalation is somehow encouraging piece, which is absolutely ridiculous. But some business, right, but not quite installed certain very job in the past and started the pro is not super clear. Um i will try to unify but the mail thats a um are you got paper like nights i saturday general site and what youd probably needs is, i mean ition. Im not swear the quotes of dates, hunter, i should because they, the reality is throughout europe theres actually no unification. Thats all that were speaking with different voices. You called the president trying to cite the United States when they are actually knots. And weve got a situation here where the guys have to face the fact that the client is actually been losing this conflict for some considerable time and how they actually going to deal with that. But the added problem is theres a loss of elections in the countries to see it. Yeah. And the key points about all of this is not one uh, trunk tray. Perhaps a pop. Ive been also opinion. So i dont know if these policies are gates, russia. Im supporting the current governments in the price of any mind i will set that up and thats very key. Im going to talk about democracy. Theres no democracy, theres always more money. Oh, this huge expenditure public money without any overall. And so you, for this, this isnt supposed stomach is or not light in particular ball or in the United Kingdom is spent 12000000000, sorry, the fall, cho, built in, which is solely need to develop. I is not the same. So im assumptions are getting frustrated, rebounded the cases are the so type, huge rises and the costs of energy and the costs of living. And its a disaster situation. I bought the pump that can also allow me to have an opinion on this is a big uh, theres a lot said about the fact that people in russia doesnt have an opinion which allowed say, golf fords in the u. K. E. Uh the, the medias some controlled, but you call another well you, you could have an opinion, itll just be censored. Okay, that is, thats their method that alexandra, you know, we had the lot being president in the i refer to the ball to republic says the baltic chihuahuas on this program. He said he was quartered in saying russia must be destroyed. Well, isnt that nice coming from a Little Country like lafayette and also we have other baltic republic saying that the u. K. Should return conscription. So how do you react to that . Its nice that another country banks, another country, should have conscription. What is a lot, be a good to throw into the, into the mix here. I mean, how many you halls, full of weapons do they have alexander . Its easier for them to say this, the i kind of catching the wave and the reminded me that plastic case of the younger brother who trusted deezen bully, everyone because he knows that he has an older brother that can go to his rescue in case of trouble so he seems to me that the 3 residents from the Baltic States are on the heads of the argument. Theyre behaving this way because they know that they have someone on their back that will try and please not only to follow what they are saying, but at the same time to protect them and to, to confirm these words. However, lucky and not only has nothing but we have only a also see weeks ago that for example, denmark promised to send all the material artillery. They had the support to bring. And then you realize its only 14 how beach this so its not much, but the police are the finally called yes. What theyre trying to say is that we are giving whatever we have a speaking of prescription, for example. I speak for him knowing the situation in menu opinion and countries is easier to say for granting is to keep fighting until the last 2 brain. But when it comes up to the, to the situation where our own citizens should be deployed to the metal ground to the battlefield, thats a whole different story. Thats kind of solution. Usually most the majority of the people did not support. We dont want to send our signs, our grandchildren to the war, but we wont be other support for us. Because if you see, even from frances, press the press for french residents words. What she says usually is we are pointing to the boy as some of the lead gary, in some way, are you great . And she wasnt. She was too vague. But at the same time, she is not saying that shes going to confront the russia because she knows how unpopular such words would be understood by the french or from what i understand alexanders a, its 6768 percent of french people. Paul, do not want french soldiers going to ukraine. Again, this is an elite agenda, you know, stephen, one of the things, you know, when i look at these european leaders and i dont know, my, i guess im a chrome, this has an inferior already complex or hes competing with Sergeant Schultz or Something Like that. Anyway, we dont need political science, we need psychologist, i suppose, to understand these people, but you know, the moral ization rusher must not be allowed to wait. And what does that mean stephen . That means that they have a problem with the numbers and reading what is going on on the ground, but it is also a very dangerous spot because these words can eventually turn it into into moves which will cause escalation. The scenario, the possible scenario that i see is that uh at the beginning you would have made the forces over to enter West Virginia and practically police a occupied to be quite blunt. Uh, they would privately be Occupation Forces in ukraine in central advice, and youre trained perhaps you have to, but theyre the point of them being there. A would be to release old, the police man, all the National Guard and honor Security Forces of ukraine to go to the me drive or in the east. And that is how i call a slow escalation and slow. And i think involvement that can actually become a lot of i was even stephen easy. You bring up an interesting point here. So if you are ukranian, cells are being sent to the meat grinder and theres some french guy sitting in a cafe in care. But what do you think hes gonna think my life is worth less than the french guys . Steven . Exactly. I think they are, they, i mean, this was done from the beginning, but i think now theyre starting to realize that on the front you see that the people are doing everything to try to not end up in the mead rides or people are driving the local uh, maybe 3 authorities, theyre trying to rescue themselves by running away on the border and theyre being cost and then sense to the mean grinder. I mean, this is the dire situation of man in ukraine is really something that should be uh, called a humanitarian catastrophe. But it is not, i mean, this is against, uh, uh, the, the, the war war. This is against any kind of, uh, so lets say ethics of war, but that is exactly what were seeing. Well, im glad im glad saving you brought up the word ethics here. Let me go to anthony. Now, i mean Lindsey Graham oh, pines again. You know hes complaining of the conscripting age is too high. They need to lower. We need to get these younger guys here. I mean, its just amazing to see how western politicians are willing to do using ukrainians as cannon fodder. And the always that, you know, american troops. I mean, what a ghoulish way to approach things, anthony. Yeah, yes, its terrible. The loss of the psycho breast and read is not are actually has the amount of tree experience themselves. Sites are quite happy for other people to type type the races, but not them are not very uh, sons endorsers and a such as i said to try to find the situation because of the printing casualties. Saint paul, a 1400000 pets died weight and did this again, not shit and watch it on the on to suddenly the washington casualties about 288000 equivalent. So the situation is understandable from the crime point of view. And its probably much like the starting grace of nazi germany where people were starting to surrender up to the old mass. But there were a few die off people around. But its concerning a bit of as some people, particularly in the United States, and indeed in the country who will be happy for the ukrainian bio population. But states are be wipes out just to satisfy that, right . So the, its a blood glass. Last is what it is here, gentlemen. Right here, were approaching a hard break and after that hard break, well continue our discussion on you can stay with our team. The look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. A robot must obey the orders given by human beings accept. Were such orders at conflict with the 1st law show alignment of the patient. We should be very careful about our personal intelligence. The point obviously, is to makes a trust rather than to the various jobs. I mean with artificial intelligence, we have somebody in the robot most protects this phone. Existence was on the we are in north of cities in the congress has mountains where Beautiful People have been coming together to celebrate the ancient traditions. Since the beginning of time itself, where everything has a special symbolic meaning. Im so im thomas, this isnt my vision. And today were discovering of the world of a subject culture, the the, what is part of the, the employee would post that isnt the, the 1st 2 of us in that, in the world. But is it something deeper, more complex, might the present good . Lets stop without pages. Lets go products. As the welcome act across ok, were all things are considered a computer without your mind you were discussing. You create the ok. Lets go to alexander in listen, lets keep with this, this theme of a true, a nato troops being sent to central ukraine, western ukraine as an exemplary for sort of Something Like that. We train, wow, i dont know. Um, but you know, is that is, is there a built in assumption on the part of nato think or is if thats not a contradiction in terms of that the russians wouldnt dare to touch those troops. Thats a pretty big assumption to have. Alexander. Yes, decent the next step. Of course, the russians, i can see the russians having to, were logging dash to hit natos troops wherever they are, regardless if they are in a so terry 3 story they are in your brain, west of eastern, west and central, whatever. But at the same time, we have just before present to the to see whats, what will be the mission of these nathan troops are, where are they going to be deployed as are only the french spots are obese, posted by the french . Or are they going to be at the grey sponsors by nature of this will be a decisive factor in order to decide and when the stand talking, the russians deal with these forces at the same time. Because we have seen so far that there are a lot of military stocks from the 2 countries. A great not only gather huge board meetings, not only for the technical purposes, but they have been there and many of them have been dying in the battlefield. The problem is to see if they are going to attempt to bring new troops in certain areas, or if they are going to start any kind of look at the action in order to force rupture to a deck and then use rest. Yes, all addictions 1st in 1st place, but i dont see any kind of being fashion from nato countries or even by france alone. You start any kind of contact, ultimately contact our cameras, but i would render if theyre in the battle field, theyre in the battle space. What differences a make, i dont think, you know, if these forces, whatever theyre doing with their aiding and abetting a military to kill rush themselves or so they are the enemy as well. How could it be different . Yes, the problem is its like basically it means that they are on the ground wireless police through the present time to have never admitted that. They werent the battle wrong. They werent the battlefield. They were not the only friends. Theyre not only german, the police, but also from the United States. They have b u, during confrontations. The problem is that people look funny. Now that they are assuming youd be bodily, then they want to start to use it as being some kind of rigor in order to go to create any kind of tension, a possibility with russia. Okay, talking about triggers. Well then stephen, lets, lets think about it logically, i know western leaders, theyll do this, okay. But, you know, then, you know, we have the article 5 come into into play here, okay . I mean, if, if theyre going to go into the battle space, okay, and there is a exchange, there are casualties, then theyre in a stage of war. But then nato cannot invoke the article 5 because theyve already violated article one, that they would not go into a military conflict here. So i mean theyre, theyre shredding their own logic and their own law. Go ahead, stephen. Were going into a philosophical discussion now because what nato has been doing for the last 2 years, if not much longer, is to get involved as much as possible into the war box for the rest of the world. The thing that nato is not into words so phrase us treasury policy has made its coalition for munitions. And so they are gathering thank rather than deployed 800165 millimeter cells from they, they claim they bought it in, in the south korea and other countries and other Major Companies are involved in this kind of wherever they are presenting a Digital Committee the, this is a, some kind of call issue of the willing, remembered the phrase from 2003 when bush a back to iraq. So it wasnt made, so it was called vision of the willing. So what theyre doing now is executive, that may 12th, all right, well see what i can up the anti here. Adeline. A better bach . What 1 . 80 degrees . Better boxy wants to have somehow german missiles are sold to the british so the british can send them to ukraine. I dont know what kind of food was gonna be raised to them. And by the way, it would see for some reason not the defense minister would be able to control coordinates. Id be a, this is getting insane and somebody react to that. Well, the, it is insight and weve costs are pretty insane. The on the defense, i prefer i dropped start, sees likely to, to get along with that. But there are consequences for the congress rate, which um, ill get started, hopefully involved in helping uh, pricing eco, russian soldiers and in the u. K. Do you guys just lost the major fishing agreement with brochure um, which is to do, but its the, its the staple dogs and maybe people in the United Kingdom, official objects and go back out to see a scar or to increase in the price of fish in the United Kingdom because thats the thing were talking about. I think ross is actually being for moderates and its a reaction to various european country. So the anthony, let me this on this special issue here. So the British Public will be denied fish, but the russian public will be able to eat fish. Yeah. How is that a sanction as well . Just the, im sorry, go ahead. Well, well, theyve already found it again. See if i can get them like the looks of it. Consequences of having such a policy because the, the due date. So i can sure exactly work, but if we guys thought, so the subject said People Killed is only the b, 5900. The 62 on soldiers killed in, in the ukraine. A good proportion of visor in the United Kingdom. And uh, its been a bit of a cover all how much longer of the percentage public goods be denied the information because theyre supposed to be you guys have delta dental of intelligence to help with the training to make sure re 5 ohms is all i all right, but in reality that helping directs offensive operations again, instruct