Through Video Conference and participate to the same extent as if physically present. Public comment is available for each item. Cable channel 26 and sfgovtv are scrolling the call in number on crosonthe screen. Once connected and prompted enter the meeting id1464783455. Then press pound followed by pound a second time to be connected. You will hear the discussions but you will be muted. Your line will be in his senning mode only. When your item comes up dial star and three to be added to the speaker line. The system prompt will indicate you have raised your hand. You may begin your comments when unmuted. Call from a quiet location, speak clearly and slowly, turndown your television or radio or streaming device. Account for potential time delays between live coverage and streaming. You may submit Public Comment in the following ways email me john carroll, clerk of government audit and Oversight Committee. Please submit the comment by email. I will add to the public file for the legislative matter. You can send mail to our post office at city hall. Finally, items today will appear on the agenda of august 11, 2020 unless otherwise stated. Thank you, mr. Clerk. Can you please call item 1. Hearing on the current hiring and Recruitment Practices for the First Responders and special focus on strategies to diversify the work forces including statistics and demographics how they staff their recruitment teams. Members of the public now would be the time to call. Dial in number is 415 6550001. Enter todays id1463783455. Press pound twice. Then press star followed by 3 to speak. The system prompts will indicate you have raised your hand. Thank you, mr. Chair. Thank you, mr. Clerk. Supervisor safai thank you for calling for this important hearing. The floor is yours. Thank you, chair mar, forgetting this on. I know there is a tremendous number of requests and backlog in your committee. I appreciate you making time for this and highlighting the importance of this issue. I wanted to say today we are here to discuss a really important issue in what we consider extremely important given the climate in our streets, reckoning on a National Level and overall movement for racial and civil rights and equity in our society. Specifically i am referring to reckoning around race and structures of power that have oppressed the most vulnerable in the society for a long time. We need to ask ourselves if we are doing enough, and if we are Opening Doors for others like many did for us. It has been the history of this country. With that said, i want to explain why i called for this hearing along with partnership with supervisor walton to focus on the recruitment, hiring, retention and promotion of the diverse candidates within our First Responders, fire, police and sheriffs department. I want to make a special note that many representative bodies, specifically within the Fire Department, approached us and asked us to hear their concerns. It was from those hearings and many of the things i have mentioned and meetings i mean, not hearings, that we decided to bring this to the forefront, particularly what we are seeing in the streets today in the United States. Also, to help give us guidance in addition to First Responders. We asked the office of Racial Equity to participate. They are going to give their opinions analysis after the presentations that are given, and also specific requests from local 798 from the firefighters will be addressing the committee. I am going to get right into it. We will have opportunities as Committee Members to ask questions, but we are going to first have the Fire Department, chief Joanne Nichols and her chief and acting captain al together. Fire department has submitted a Powerpoint Presentation. Thank you for that. They are going to try to present that. Second we will hear from the Police Department and here is police chief bill scott and also with bill scott is commander steve ford. The Fire Department has a Powerpoint Presentation. Then we will hear from the Sheriff Department. They also have put together a Powerpoint Presentation. We havent seen it yet. Maybe they will get it to us shortly. After that we will have response from Human Rights Commission director cheryl davis and more than anything we are going to hear what the departments presented and react and give analysis and recommendation. We will finally hear from local 798 president and director. One last note. We have the department of Human Resources here to answer any questions as it pertains to testing in particular. With that why dont we go ahead and have the first presenter begin, mr. Chair. Then we can go in order from there. Chief nichol. Chief nicholson good morning. I dont think supervisor haney is here, is that correct . Directors davis and simply. Thank you for calling this. I will ask jose and price to make themselves seen. Chief bellow is going to put up the presentation for us. Good morning. Let me share the presentation with chief nicholson. Chief nicholson i can start speaking while you work on that. I know you practiced and it worked. I will start. I will give you an overview today of the backgrounds of our recruitment and hiring over the last 30 plus years, the process and current process, resources, partnerships, and any future business that we have discussed. In 1988 there was a Court Ordered consent degree. We had 83 of the department was white male at that time t. Zero percent was female. The black firefighters and others got together and sued the department and the city. There was a Consent Decree put in place. As a result of that decree, and i wish you could see this on the screen. We ended up with just under 50 white, 17 asian, 9 black, 16 hispanic, 5 plus percent filipino and 16 women. We were well funded due to the Consent Decree. That is no longer the case. We have very limited administrative staff throughout the department, including in our recruitment. Our current landscape is decent. In 2016 the u. S. Department of labor said we were one of the top five departments in the nation for diversity. This year we were in a study for recruitment success for women. We have a lot of work to do. This is currently how it works. I have quite a few issues with this that i think need to be changed. Right now what happens is folks sign up for the ntn, National Testing network. This was adopted by dhr. It was quite a few years ago. It is much cheaper to do than how we used to test, but in my opinion there is bias in it. People from all over the country are on the list as well. That poses a problem. We know the fire Service Nationwide is not as diverse as we are here. I would rather give a local kid a job than someone from florida. Also, the outcome of this test is definitely disperate. Africanamericans and females do not perform as well as other groups. We definitely have, and i think most of the Employee Groups and union and i are in agreement on this. Then you go to the cpa p test. That is also limiting for folks who are in underserved communities because you have to go somewhere. You have to pay for it and know about it. Maybe you have to train for it. That is also while it is extremely important to have it, we need to create pathways for people to take it. National edgily e. M. T. In ems this is incredible lack of diversity. In our own department. I have been speaking about this since i took office. In station 49 our ems we only have two africanamerican women and 13 africanamerican men out of 200 people. That is unacceptable. We can talk more about that. Next is the hiring officer, which is me, basically. This year what i did was instituted some diverse panels in the department to talk to folks applying to the department and to make recommendations to me. There may be something others see that i dont, you know, culturally and otherwise. We did that this year. Then, of course, there is a hiring freeze now. We go through background exams and selection to the academy and then getting through the academy. This is a slide of the National Testing network, who applied, who signed up to take the ntn over the past year as of may 31st. The numbers drop in terms of who qualifies and who actually shows up to take the test. It is predominantly white, and the numbers drop in terms of who actually takes the test and really drop in terms of who passes the test. Again, africanamericans do not do as well as other groups. Again, i think there is a problem with the test. This is our hiring as of 2018 to present. This includes our firefighters and our ems. You can see that the orange is our ems station 49. Again, we are not doing a good job in terms of recruiting the right a good amount of diverse candidates. I think especially when it comes to public service, First Responders, you need to represent the community that we are serving. Our current practices are and components, a, recruitment coordinator firefighter. Committee on Community Outreach and recruitment and education. They do a lot of the work. Then we have the web and social media. Our recruitment coordinator is responsible for implementing, devicing and developing methods and strategies for recruitment and outreach. They hold the event or set up the table at different cultural events, whether it is the gaypride parade or mlk day or what have you. That is only one person. I believe back when we had the Consent Decree in place there were five people assigned to recruitment. Our Core Committee does provide a recruitment be footprint to education. I will talk about the Mission High School program we are running and it develops different partnerships that help the recruitment coordinator to provide career information. This is a really important pathway, pipeline, if you will, i hope it to be, for kids to come into the San Francisco Fire Department. The Pathways Program exposes kids to these opportunities that they wouldnt necessarily otherwise be exposed to. In Mission High School we have had a chance last year of fire science and this year ems class. What we want to do is when these kids turn 18 they can take the National Registry e. M. T. We want to prep those students in high school to take and pass that. Through this program they also get credits at city college, which is a wonderful thing. We really want to be able to develop this into a pipeline. Again, the current pipeline Mission High School we want to expand that. We want to establish a Fire Prevention and Education Program for 6 through 12th grade students. We want to utilize the mission high fire and ems students to help build the content and facilitate that training. That is also in the works. This is my big passion, and when i first came in i called up director cheryl davis to ask to meet with her about several things i wanted to do within the department. This is one of them. Ems corps. It is Incredible Program set up by the gentleman standing in the photo in the middle in the east bay. It works with young men at risk in the inner city. It brings them in and gives them a stipend and life coaching, trauma counseling, Wraparound Services, math, literacy and gives them an e. M. T. Class. Over 85 of the young men served over 200 so far, over 85 passed the National Registry e. M. T. Class. That is higher than the National Average. We have two of the graduates in our department today. One may be watching today. Antoine davis with the black firefighters. These are the future leaders. They have overcome adversity with the proper support. They are standing out in all sorts of weighs in the department now. We also want to do female cohorts. They initially tried male and female because it did not work because of the distraction. With the trauma counseling they needed to separate men and women out. We need funding for this. I have spoken with supervisor walton and director davis and a lot of folks about this. It needs funding. Covid happened and cheryl davis was extremely busy doing a bang up job. We all have been diverted. We have the nonprofit in place and folks in place. We could start it in district 10. It needs funding. I would like to make this a permanent pipeline to the department as well. These are department initiatives i have already spoken about, and what i havent spoken about is opportunities for all. We started with that last year, and we were going to expand it quite a bit from last year. Obviously, covid hit and we couldnt have young adults with us on the fire engines and ambulances and working sidebyside with us. We currently have three kids from opportunity for all at station 49 right now. These are some of the other initiatives. Recruitment videos and we also established an Intern Program at headquarters through city college and their science program. This is just sort of the show and tell what the Core Committee does. The middle photo is united fire servicemen that set this up Fire Service Women set this up for young kids to go through a little Fire Training area. It was superfun. Left is Mission High School program and some field trips. On the bottom left is our outreach folks from the bureau Fire Prevention. They help us with education and outreach. Our work with both hrc and ore began a as soon as the director came on board, soon after i had the opportunity to meet her at headquarters and talked about several of the things we wanted to do. We also appointed a Racial Equity officer in the department who is here with us today in case you have any questions to ask of him. He is working built gently with the office of Racial Equity to do all sorts of thinks including reassessing our recruitment and hiring practices and creating a Racial Equity action plan. We have affinity or Employee Groups. We are working with the bsa. We are meeting with Employee Groups to talk about these issues as well as outreach and recruitment. Next is city college of San Francisco. There is a fire and ems courses aat the college level. There is a real lack of diversity in the classes. What are we doing wrong . One fix could be the Unified School District pathways. Fierfire reserves are not paid. They volunteer. It is not always a particularly Diverse Group because these folks come and train with us one night a week or every couple weeks. They train with us and dont get paid for it. They have to get there and they may be working. Then opportunities for all. I want to talk about the future vision. I want to develop pipelines. That is what is sorely needed here. We have lost ground from when we had our Consent Decree in place over 30 years ago. We lost the majority of africanamerican chiefs in this department, we have very few left. We have lost a step in our recruitment and hiring and advancement. What we are doing, obviously, having this conversation and talking about it. We are developing internal professional development for leadership and management. We dont have a proper Succession Plan in place. It is okay if you are single you can take this class on your off days. If you are a single parent or you have some stuff to take care of and you cant take this on off time. Offer the classes in house to be able to bring everybody along with one another. We want to develop the comprehensive recruitment hiring and advancement strategy. Working with Racial Equity committee to develop strategies. Our hiring process i want tatiania little bit. I dont want to be the only person having input. I think that is why we tried these hiring panels, Interview Panels earlier this year. It was trying something new and then we had a hiring freeze. We are also looking at what is not on here is mentorship, when folks get into the academy. We can see some impact who pas passes similar to National Testing network. We want to change the National Testing network and we need that conversation with department of Human Resources. We need resources to do this stuff. It is very difficult to do with the resources we have. Some of it we can do, but i am committed to this. I have been committed to this. When i spoke with the mayor when i was interviewing, i talked about all of this stuff because it is really important to me. Equity is important, and like i said i feel like the department has lost a step since the Consent Decree because it was 30 years ago. Many of those people are retiring. I also came in during the Consent Decree, and i have seen the value in that it is an incredible experience for me. I have learned to be a better firefighter, paramedic and better person. I am very concerned. I am really pleased you called this hearing. Is that it, jose . Thank you for your time. I think i went over the five minutes. What we are going to do is let each of the different departments present. We will then have the office of Racial Equity react to the presentation and i will ask my fellow Committee Members unless they have a pressing question right now to hold their questions. I want to recognize supervisor walton. We have had fire chief and we will have the police chief and will have the sheriff and then local 798 and the office of Racial Equity and Human Rights Commission Say Something. If you want to Say Something right now i am happy to give you the floor through the chair. Thank you for having me this morning to the entire committee and through the chair, supervisor safai. I have a commitment at 11 00. If i may i contacted to of oles oles oif i may i want to tha. I was wondering if that was okay. I am fine with that if the chair is okay. That is fine. Please proceed. I want to acknowledge the work that the Fire Department has been trying to do. When i was on the board of education we fought hard for the science class at Mission High School working with 798 and the leadership of the department at that time. I thank you for your continued commitment to that class as well as you know you and i have had great conversations about the ems class and high outcomes they have for people of color, and the fact we have members of the Fire Department, members of some medical services that have gone through that ems class. One question to ask because i know we are in a fiscal financial crisis. We both want to raise resources for this program because i think as we look at the data it will be something that can be a pathway in the pipeline to the Fire Department that will be successful for helping the Fire Department become more diverse. I am asking if there is any resources the Fire Department could commit to this program it would be great to see that happen. I am going to try to identify other resources. If the Fire Department has any resources to the ems class this cycle is my question . We have been asked to cut quite a bit out of our budget. We are still working with the mayors budget office. We are close on that. We have not found any resources yet for this. I would very much like to be able to commit, but it is something we are still talking about internally. It is such a tight budget time right now. We are talking about it though. I wont belabor the committee with more questions. The chief and i will continue talking. I will try to connect with the mayor on this. This is very important. I do want to thank you, chief, for your commitment. Thank you. Supervisor walton, on that point before the next speaker. We will be hearing from all of the different be departments. One of the reasons i pushed to have this hearing before the budget proceedings began. I appreciate chair marfor getting the schedules. That is exactly what we dont want to hear going to the budget during this time of crisis, during this time of dwindling numbers in diversity. We want to hear what the departments plans were. Because there are so many competing interests, we are talking about reinvesting in the back community and redirecting funds in the budget and the importance of having a First Responder work for us, we wanted to have this hearing today to inform the conversations at the budget. I know you it is on that committee. We are going to dive into that deeper. You and i have had those conversations. That is the big focus of todays hearing. Next speaker. Chief scott. Good morning. The San Francisco Police Department appreciates the opportunity to provide an overview of our efforts to improve diversity in the ranks of the Police Department. As you know in 2016 as part of this assessment, United States department of justice commended the San Francisco Police Department for diversity and overall staffing related to race and ethnicity. We realize there is much room for improvement. Efforts have been ongoing more than a decade, over the past four years the Police Department analyzed the diversity initiatives to recruiting, hiring, promoting and retaining diverse and high performing work force. There was a reorganization of staff responsible for recruitment, hiring, Staff Development and personnel deployment under one command. That is the administration borough. This effort of set of departments under one umbrella allows better recruitment between the police and dhr. They have a major role in this process. We will provide a robust overview of recruitment hiring effort and success. The activity strategies were developed with a focus on underrepresented groups. From recruitment outreach to contact with individual applicants we have assisted hundreds of candidates to prepare for background process for Sworn Police Officers including training sessions to help individuals prepare for the physical agility test. In addition the recruitment unit offers Test Preparation sessions for the written test as well as the oral period interviews. Where we are today with highering qualified candidates is as follows. To fill upcoming academies with qualified applicants, a few years ago dhr started a hiring for the Police Officers on a continuous bases. We have the same process a National Online test. I would add that on june 18, our mayor asked audit of hiring practices to determine if screening efforts were in place to ensure those hired reflect the best values. We believe this process and audit will make us better, but it has caused a temporary cause in hiring. Our members continue to use a very forward thinking strategy aimed at not just diversity but maintains an equitable Work Environment. This highlights the initiatives to prioritize and improve diversity within the department. I will turn this over to commander steveford who has a Powerpoint Presentation for the committee. Good morning, chief, everyone. With respect to hiring and Recruitment Strategies to diversify. It is the way we macon tent with applicants. One is word of mouth, friends and family like a referral, others see advertisements on billboards. The main way we make contacts is through class presentations at colleges and learning institutions. We feel that is a prime location to identify capable qualified people to come into this organization. Over the past 18 months we had many recruitment highlights. First two bullet points we are proud of. This is commitment to reaching out to africanamerican committee. In baltimore in 2019 we participated in a hb c. U. Career fair and made contact with 30hb c. U. S. This really speaks to commitment to tapping that demographic. In the last sentence we have a history of reaching out where we have touched base with Clark University and moore house and spell man. Bullet 6 the handshake and linkedin and Text Messages platform. That speaks to technology resources. The handshake is the way in which College Students find jobs. Our theory is we want to tap into kids in college. The feeling is they can make prudent decisions. Linkedin and Text Messages are wide ranging platforms we can reach a young guy verse audience mindful of the technology to a younger demographic. The seventh bullet where it says we recruited in 2019 we are proud of this. We participated in upwards of 219 events, 46 were new. During 2018 you can subtract 46 from the 2020. In 2019 we touched one event per week more than the previous year. We are very proud of that. That allows us to have a wide ranging reach to touch a wide variety of candidates. This really speaks to our commitment to outreach and making certain that we market this organization in a very prudent manner. The last bullet speaks to internal process that we just reinitiated. I gave the credit to captain who transferred to northern station. He was the brain child behind refocusing back to the San Francisco ecosystem. We do an excellent job to exterior cities and space. We wanted to refocus on San Francisco and give special credence to the San Francisco residents, students and job optioseekers. We will get to slide 4 shortly. Moving with additional diversity strategies. It illustrates diverse Police Officers. This is a symbolic nature in terms who we are in organization. If you drive by headquarters you will see a large billboard with three or four officers members of our organization and who represent a large colorful array of ethnicities and genders indicative of San Francisco and this organization. We feel this is a very, very important symbolic nature as we are reflection of the local environment. Bullet two speaks to social media. Again, this is our specific attempt to reach a young demographic. They are technologically sound and we try to tap into their world. This young group of individuals is also very, very diverse in terms of ethnicity and gender. College recruiting puts in a ready labor pool. A ready labor pool that we feel and there is enough information to quantify that. Educated officer makes prudent decisions and can certainly mitigate liability against themself and the Organization Better than someone who may not think as critically. We try to identify and embrace those college kids who are academically inclined to translate to preserve meaningful employment. We fell this Organization Meets that bill. On the road saves time and money to those who may not be able to travel through the state. We come to them to bring it to them to make its easier and hopefully they would be more inclined to seek employment with this organization. The next two bullets are joined at the hip. Ththe mentorship. Part of our success in identifying the diverse work force is connection from the time that the individual goes to the process, we are talking to them, reaching out to them and during the free test processes and mentorship processes we created a sense of connection and value and impression we want you to be part of this organization. Last bullet on slide 3 really important. This is where we get to qualitative and quantitative data surveys and this is the best way to gauge the utility of efforts in recruiting and strategy and best way for the bullet we get consistent feedback to make assessment in terms of what is useful and how to proceed and continue to engage with and embrace the diverse work force. One question. How many people comprise the recruiting unit and who is in charge . That is coming up on slide five. I feel better now, i have a question preanswered. Keep going. Sorry. No worries. Slide 4 the strategies to diversify. Top bullet speaks to a concerted effort to reach to female applicants. There are three specific instances where we reached out to femalefocused events. Third is no question about it. We acknowledge and embrace the value women bring to the work force and the policing profession. Later in slide 8 you will see the expression. Bullet two on slide four. This speaks to continued collaboration with Employee Groups. Internal members who comprise comments and questions not only about promoting but also about hiring and diversifying the work force. This speaks to the organizations commitment to members and to making certain we give every faction a platform and voice at the table. There is one organization at the bottom that should be at the bottom that isnt. I want to refer to that. Thathat is the office for justie ofj they have a longstanding history towards equity. I want to give them their due respect. Bullet 4 is really critical. Our quarterly meetings with city departments within Human Resources. This is every 90 days. Staff services, individuals, acting captain jones, lieutenant and myself. We have hr professional in the organization. Meet with dave johnson external dhr entity. Also, we have the sergeant who leads the unit and efforts. This is quarterly. We get together with a wide variety of issues and concerns that we talk about. The main focus is the hiring and to make sure we collaborate and find the best strategy to address the de fis de the de fis they arise. That is part much the communities every 90 days. Slide 5 will give you a good assessment of our recruitment unit. Well established. Been around for a long time. I am a former recruiter. I recruited in 1992 for the organization. This organization has a long and dedicated history to recruiting with specific reference to diversity. These are the fulltime recruiters. On the top we have the supervisor and it moves down sequentially through the list every rooters. It is of the recruiters. It is 50 50 split between male and female as well as those who speak additional languages. This current compliment everycruitters serves us well. I know them personally and they subscribe to the idea of embracing the value of the diverse work force. This Current Group under the leadership of the sergeant is doing a tremendous job and will continue to serve this organization and the city well. These are fulltime people spending 40 hours under the leadership. Thank you. Slide 6, please. Now we get to the data points. These next few slides identify everything we have spoken about. 81 parttime recruiters and this represents the ethnics of each recruiter. 81 individual members fulltime Police Officers who also understand the value of investing in this organization and also serve in a parttime capacity recruiting and supplementing and augmenting the efforts that the fulltime people make. You can see it is a wide range of ethnicities and we are very proud of the organization taking this approach to recruiting. Number 7, please. This is where you really see the outcome of not only the configuration of recruitment unit but also it speaks to the approach to recruiting and understanding of the value of the outcomes of the recruitment efforts and strategies. Over the last 13 years the trend in terms ofth mi of the ethnic breakdowns and you can see over the past five years it is robust outcome in terms ofth mic makeup. This is nothing new. Sfpd has a history of making certain we identify a capable, competent and diverse work force. Before the next slide. Do you have the information that breaks it down by gender and Sexual Orientation as well . Slide 8 will address that question. With this slide identified the breakdown by gender those entering. This is a 13 year snapshot. On average probably the percent of women from 2015 to 2019 that is 20 average. We definitely are addressing and understanding the issue among our ranks pertaining to gender, and i think these numbers are really reflective of our commitment to doing so. That concludes our presentation. Slide 9 is a question and comment slide. That concludes our overview. Thank you, commander. We will come back to you. Thank you for that thorough presentation. I think it is really important to see these different departments sidebyside. We will come back. Unless any of the Committee Members want to add something quickly right now. Supervisor peskin. The Fire Departments presentation chief nicholson actually gave high level information comparing us to other cities. Does the Police Department have any similar high level data as to the last slide we looked at gender split at 18 to 20 over time . How does that compare to other major metro Police Departments . Same question on ethnicity. We do have that data. I will pull it up. We fare welcome paired to other departments in the bay area and across the state in gender. We are at 16 female and i think we are one of the top in the bay area compared to other cities. Behind lapd that is 19 female. Nationally that number is about 10 nationwide on average. We are higher than most bay area. There is only one bay city where we are. We do well on that. In terms of ethnicity we fare well. When they assessed us they commended us for diversity through the ranks. As we talked through the breakdown, i will get it for you. I will come back to you. I was thanking the chief and commander. That was one of the things that i thought was a great presentation that was the current makeup. You talk about recruits and where things are in all of your recruiters and staff we need a slide on current makeup. We will give you time on that, chief. Thank you. The next person is the sheriff. Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to present the information that was requested. Also, the opportunity, i think it is something i want to point out that when i come from these types of hearing and i am happy to do this. It is sharing of ideas. I have been in office for six months. I dont have the time in that my fellow safety leaders have, chief nicholson and chief scott. I can come in and take notes and see what is working well and get ideas on the path to follow. As i present and give you an indication where we are and plan to go, some of these things are going to change. The selection of things other agencies are doing. I am happy to benefit from this and not just share information but learn and be part of the children in we are going to experience by using this information. For recruitment. Sheriff, before you start. Did you end up getting us a powerpoint or have something to present . Yes, i have captain stanford, our Administrative Services captain. He has the presentation. He is going to present and share his screen as we go through the presentation. Are you able to email that to us as well, please. Yes, we will send an updated version so make sure you have a copy of our presentation. I have forwarded the presentations i have received i will do a search to see if there is an updated presentation from the Sheriffs Office. Thank you. As we move forward some of the things we do are reflective of shared things from the other agencies. I will try to streamline as much as possible. I want to say our recruit meant, hiring and retention reside in our administrative and programs division. Captain sanford is the resident supervisor in charge of these efforts. We dont have as Robust Resources as everyone else does. Supervisor safai one of the main questions is resources for recruiting. We have one deputy to recruiting fulltime. His position as officer for the department leads him to having a lot of responsibilities. His efforts are supported by what we have formed in the brief time i have been here, our Community Engagement team has been formed under captain sanford which provides support to the one recruiter not just in terms of recruiting but in terms of being more engaged to Different Community events. I do want to say our objective for recruiting efforts and hiring process is to have a Sheriffs Office with a work force reflective of our community. I think you will see the numbers we show that we are well established on that and we can improve, as the fire chief mentioned, we are open to improving what we are currently at. Our mind set is that we are moving forward and going to improve on the numbers. The first slide, as i mentioned, we want to represent the community we serve. When we look at our numbers, we are comparing to San Francisco and the breakdown. The last census was in 2010. Those numbers will be updated as a result of the census this year. However in the next slide you will see that our all employed demographics not just sworn but professional ranks are reflective. Data indicates we are more diverse in identifying the five demographic areas. You will have that information provided. Next slide. Important breakdown with regards to the makeup for sworn staff. That is for any Public Safety agency to see how it reflects the community. From these numbers we are very strong in terms of how we represent our community that we serve, the sworn demographics on the left reflect the diversity of the department. How many sworn officers do you have . We have 946 f. T. E. Positions for sworn staff. We are at 820 right now, and that neighborhood. We are under staffed at this time. You will see in the subsequent slide, supervisor peskin, that our efforts and goals were 11 under what we wanted to meet to try to match the attrition rate and the needs of our staffing numbers to go up. We were asked about the gender demographics. Overall breakdown for employees were reflective overall of 22 and 78 for the two genders. To the next slide to break it down for sworn. The numbers that we have that arent on there for the demographics. The interest level we are at about as you can see a trend on the left. It is not a piechart. You can see the sworn staff gender demographic were as 14 right now for females that we were at three years ago in 2018. We are starting to drop there. As we talk about recruitment efforts to understand that our recruitment efforts include outreach to people specific to gender as well. Any questions so far . Okay. We will go on. I will touch on the hiring practices. Next slide is the data that we obtained from dhr as to who applies. This is last year. Breakdown of how many people applied by ethnicity. It does reflect that some of our current Recruitment Practices have an outreach to obtain a more diverse applicant pool. Our own diversity is providing a welcoming platform for individuals interested in applying for our department. This is our breakdown we didnt want to reflect and show to the committee that although we have a robust application process, when you are looking at people applying to Public Safety agency, the challenge and effort to hire individuals is reflective of the numbers at the outset. As you can see from the 48 hired last year we ended up with individuals coming in 27 total completing the academy and nine were academy trained. The breakdown for 38 applicants we get there is about one they were that finishes the process as an academy graduated. Our challenge is getting more numbers at the front end of applicants which we will talk about under recruitment and the strategy to do that. That is reflective of the challenges not just for ourselves but Public Safety agencies as well. We projected out those numberings to hire people. We were very short of many goals recently. We have challenges which is reflective of the perception and image of our profession right now. We are going to have to adjust some of our recruitment efforts to make sure that we account for some of those challenges as we move forward as well. Hiring plan for the fiscal year. This is a short slide. 946 p. We hope to hire 100. That is hopefully realistic in terms of meeting our goal. Are you not under a hiring freeze . No, we are not. We are on a freeze right now that commander or chief scott referenced earlier in regards to current Testing Process. To make sure it is reflective of the concerns over equity. We are in the hold right now nor the process itself but not hiring freeze. This is a basic summary of recruitment efforts. When we do survey recently hired employees, most people hear from friends and family. Most have applied to other agencies. One of the challenges is preparation and assembly of documents for the process itself. We have put steps in place to accommodate needs, allowing for people to provide information in timely manner and accommodating for the processes themselves so they are not astringent in the past. Strategy with regards to the recruitment. The hope is that with the formation of the Community Engagement team the following strategies which we have been engaged in with one person will become stronger because of the expansion of our efforts with the additional staff. We did bring in somebody who is a 916. They come in parttime. In the past we havent utilized individuals for recruitment efforts. We have someone doing that. We focus on career fairs, engagement with youth. I will mention what is set up. We did have a Long Distance recruitment event in georgia. We are looking at strategies to include reaching out further to other areas. I believe it was the baltimore thing. We want to hire people from the community itself. As we get people in academy processes, we use different academies. We have not just sfpd but we run out of san mateo, and Santa Rosa Community college. By having different locations to send recruit goes to we have the opportunity to reach out to people attending the academy in terms of recruiting them and seeing if they can go through our hiring process as well. We will continue to do that as part of our strategy. We have a process that we started to use in terms of recruitment and Community Engagement. She was part of our team. Due to covid we are on hold for that program to progress with just her. We also engaged in the practice of having practices for some of the Testing Processes itself. In addition to getting people in the pipeline we hold clinics and practice sessions for individuals to work on skill sets they are going to be tested on. These are open to all applicants. It is an effort to make sure people are better prepared when they come to take the test in order to be more successful and reduce barriers for them to possibly not pass. Unfortunately, right now those practices are cancelled due to covid19. We hope when the Health Orders are lifted we will engage in that once again. Retention. To most reflective is promote of ranks. We have a Work Environment where people are more likely to stay. One thing we focus on is trying to get people to promote through the ranks. It reflects our current demographics related to our supervisor ranks overall compared to the San Francisco community population. We are still on track. Most recent promotions go into effect august 8th are more reflective of diversity. We have 64 people of color who are promoting to ranks of sergeant and lieu department in the next batch lieutenant. They are the first individuals i promote as serve. I am happy to see that reflective what we hope to achieve with diversity and equity in our department. Lastly, i think the next slide. There is a larger discussion. Our efforts as we participate in the efforts we are branching off. We started sheriffs alliance for equity. This is our strategy for Racial Equity action plan. While in draft form we hope it is up and running under the timelines dictated and the hopes for us to make sure we have robust discussions internally and make sure we are reflective of the goals and objectives. That covers almost everything i had here. Anybody have questions at this time . Thank you. Supervisor safai. A couple o of pieces of information. Maybe i missed it. What is your actual total number of deputies within your department . Actual is 820 right now. What is your overall budget for your whole department . Hopefully more after the budget process. 165 right now. What is that . 165 million. From this you have one fulltime dedicated staff to doing recruitment . Thats correct. What is their rank . Deputy f. T. E. Okay. Any parttime individuals involved in recruitment . Yes, we have twopart time individuals involved in recruitment process as well. I didnt havena last slide as part of the presentation maybe that was sent as well. I would like to see that diversity and recruitment plan you are drafting now. Absolutely. We will make that available for you as well, sir. You have applicants by race and we have your current makeup. We will come back to you. Thank you. Chief scott and nichols, are you there, chief scott . I am. I am as well. Can you also answer that . One of the answers i already have in your presentation, steve scott, you have eight fulltime and 81 parttime dedicated to recruitment. What is the size of your budget currently . The budget in total . Yes, for your department. 670 million. I just wanted a ballpark. Maybe you can tell us how much the unit if you dont have the answer right now but how much the eight fulltime employees, what the cost of that unit is to your department. Let me work on that. Chief nicholson, what is your overall budget for your whole department . Approximately 423 million. You said in your presentation you had one staffer dedicated to recruitment . Correct. Any parttime staff involved in that job . No. We use the Core Committee. We give them time coming for some of what they do but we dont pay them. How many firefighters in your department . I believe we are at approximately 1760, give or take. Good. Then, chief scott, how many officers in your department . We have a little over 2200. I will get an exact number. Just a ballpark. 2200. Thank you. I am trying to draw comparison to see what each of the budgets and the number of officers or firefighters and how many staff are dedicated to recruit meant. We will come back to that. The next person is director davis. Are you on the phone, director davis from the office of Racial Equity . Good morning. I am from the office of Racial Equity. I dont know if brittany is there as well. Anyway, what we were hoping to have she is on the line as well. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate your participation. We will probably have you come in and out of the hearing as well. I wanted to give you the opportunity to talk a little bit about this topic. Give us your reaction. I am going to ask for your help on some things at the end of the presentations. I want to give you an opportunity to Say Something now as part of the presentation. Maybe your reaction to what you have heard so far. Thank you, supervisor, for the opportunity to speak and present today. I do want to thank our First Responders and our Law Enforcement officers given this time. Listening to the presentation i have had an opportunity to check in with chief nicholson back in february. I have met with chief scott multiple times. The chair we hope we can connect soon in regards to your needs for the department. I think when it coming to this work i think we have good starts but a long way to go. I pam hoping that we can have a commitment to lead with equity and race. Given the national conversation. I think that our hiring Recruitment Strategies provide a great opportunity to help atone the disparities and how we can get good work done. Some of the areas of interest and i have five or six questions i wanted to ask. I can wait until then of the presentation as well. A couple of areas of interest. Collaboration from the office of Racial Equity the compile of the action plans due in december for every department. Racial equity leaders in each department. This past month we asked each department to submit that information to us. Thank you. I am happy to say i have met with a number of the Racial Equity leaders. Second part we have questions is a workbase culture to encourage inclusion. It supports them and growth and mobility. Another area to think about is around testing. Each one of the presentations we saw major drop offs in regards to race and gender around testing. That is an area of concern we want more conversation about and think about strategies. We wanted to better understand budget line items in regards to equity. It is one thing to talk about equity. It is that we want to Work Together to put our money where our heart and mouth is. I want to understand how it is centered in the budget given the hearings next month and then lastly what kind of relationships are we fostering with communitybased organizations . They can help with hiring and recruitment needs. Those are the four or five areas from the office of Racial Equity that we are wanting to be a resource, partner and collobborrator on, to have more robust conversations about this hearing. I think all of our leaders have been very open and very clear eyed. They have been at the heart of a lot of difficult conversations. I know doctor davis with the Human Rights Division met with chief scott and chief nicholson and the sheriff to get this work done through opportunities for all. Those are my comments for now. Those are the areas we are looking at. I look forward to hearing more from our presenters. Thank you. Thank you, director finley. That helps define the conversation, some of the things we had talked about we will come back to that. Those are good things and highlight the information that has come out today. Are there moving with Racial Equity action plans . They talked about testing. What control and influence they have over the Testing Process. That is regarding the overall budget for recruitment and diversity and is there a plan . Those are all helpful. We appreciate that and we will come back dow. Come come back to you. I want to give you the opportunity, president beufort to present abgive us your thoughts. Thank you for joining us today. Is the director sims on the call as well . I am here. Is that okay with you that we let director simms to go ahead and jump in. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having me. Thank you, chairman mar, we worked together before and special thanks to all supervisors, especially supervisor safai and walton who i have worked with several times to get more of a streamlined recruitment position and process. I know that local hire is no longer an option, but having people come from the bay area is near and dear to me as i am a San Francisco native and grew up in the lake view district. I am adrianne simms, one of approximately 20 women in the San Francisco Fire Department. A department of 1700 people. That is a very small number from the number when i came into this department. I was recruited by one of my mothers friends, one of the first women in the department. I was floating along not understanding where i needed to go in life and she pulled me in and said this will be good for you. I am a very strong girl. I didnt have a lot of direction. Without recruitment i would not be here today. I had no previous knowledge what to expect in this job and how to ham myself. I was part of the Cadet Program which prepped me for what would be in the academy. I met friends i have until today. Teamwork is essential to the success in the Fire Department. We were given the opportunity to practice with the ladders on 19th and folsom before the test. I most defly would have failed the fiscal test. Not because i am not strong but i had never used my body in that way before. It required guidance for me to succeed. The Cadet Program is why i am here. Have been given an opportunity to serve and pr protect my community. It has given me the opportunity to fight, educate and inform for not only my brothers and sisters that i can do this job as an africanamerican woman with no College Education. I was not given support or Financial Assistance by my parents. It gives me an opportunity to reach the communities i serve. That is to show them and young black and brown women and anybody that this is a path where these badges don arent a symbol of oppression. They can be a symbol of opportunity. To give you background on me. When i first got here i was a single mother, struggling, homeless. I am now a homeowner with three children that respect what i do for a living. I would not be able to do any of that without this job and this opportunity. This is very passionate to me. I could have been lost had i mott been recruit the and brought to the department. This is not a pathway for young women. We are not strong but this is something we can do and we can do this. We bring a different aspect to this job. We bring empathy. This is a masculine job where we bring something softer and peoples most traumatic parts of their lives we bring in something else. I really cannot stress enough how important recruitment is. This is a pathway of an opportunity that we have to figure out away that our kids within our community, whether they have a College Education or not can reach back to the next generation. It is something i am passionate about. I have talked with supervisor walton and supervisor safai about different ways to have a diversity plan to work with the ueg which consists of the afa, black firefighters, womens group and veterans to have them have input and support to the Recruitment Department. We need to have a budget for our Recruitment Department. The way it is working now is not working. The numbers prove that time and time again. We are losing whether it is through promotions or hiring diversity. The numbers are going down. 18 black women in this department. That does mirror the community. As we know San Francisco is one of the most gentrified cities out there. We cannot say it doesnt mirror the community so it is not important. We need to have a Recruitment Department supported by the San Francisco Fire Department and we need to have an actual plan within put and support and mentorship. We are losing a lot of people in the academy because they dont know how to maneuver through it. This is something that is very foreign to people unless this is something that you tried to do your whole life and you are studying it your whole life. I will leave it to shawn. I fully support recruitment. I am amazed to listen to sfpd for eight recruiters and budget. Our department does not have that. Last administration was not a priority because they said they had 7,000 or 8,000 applicants and didnt need to focus on recruitment. It is obvious that we do. Thank you for your time. Thank you. I appreciate your passion. Never apologize for that. President buford, are you able to speak now . Thank you very much. First i would like to thank the chair marand supervisor peskin and haney for calling this hearing. I would like to read a statement i wrote and ask any questions you may have. I would like to thank supervisor walwalton and safai for hearingr concerns and interested stakeholders to participate in this government and Oversight Committee recruitment be and inclusion efforts. This topic came over a conversation with supervisor safai who was doing the check in to see how the members were handling the recent challenges of the global pandemic. The Fire Department members were handling things well considering what was going on. Later that night i realized that members were able to adjust to the National Unrest that followed the murder of george floyd because sffd had been mandated in the late 1980s. This wasnt is First Federal mandated Consent Decree. It was the one the city took seriously and told the Public Safety association to reflect the communities we serve. The city was able to accomplish this through implementation of training members and aggressive recruitment efforts and Diverse Community throughout the city. Efforts have proven successful. The current climate of social tension made me consider what else can and should be done to continue the progress begun over 30 years ago. This is when i requested a meeting to discuss how to better fund and improve th the recruitment. One person whose job was misclassified with no established budget and lack of resources to reach the expanded communities. The concerns are not new. In fact, i have met with leaders of the San Francisco Fire Department you need employees and the ueg who voiced concerns that recruitment efforts are not sufficient. United Fire Service Women have led the conversation o on the National Testing network would have negative impact. The primary concern was the associated with the test but also the makeup of the list has changed specifically since opening testing to a larger demographics. Rescue the lgbt organization, asian firefighters, black firefighters and veteran firefighters have expressed similar opinions. The latest blow with a negative impact on local recruitment was consideration to defund the mt program formed by the Fire Department and city of San Francisco. I bring this up because individually many of these things may not be noticed. Collectively they have a huge impact on our department moving forward. I thank you for this opportunity to bring it in, and San Francisco has become one of the most diverse departments in this nation due to those efforts. The National Association of firefighters have recruited members from San Francisco to be on the human relations committee, director simms to become an instructor to show diverse population within international as well as the secretary and myself to help promote diversity and inclusion within international. I hope that our department can do the same. If commander ford is available i would love to sit down to learn about the efforts, the program seems to work well and i will take any questions if there are any for me. Thank you. You did some real outreach listening to your representative groups. You talk about what you thought your recommendations were but not thought what they were excuse me. United statessed what you thought would be helpful. Can you talk what you think would be helpful in terms of achieving goals that might have been presented . Director simms mentioned listening to the Employee Groups. They have a good understanding. They could bring the ideas to meet more Diverse Community. When i was an attendant at station four the Public Safety building i met many members of sfpd recruitment unit and saw how they were organized. My concern was that they were not at that level. What i would like to see is proper funding to our recruitment and the mayors budget where the recruiter cannot only have assistance but a budget to be classified properly as what was given to his position. Also have a recruitment budget to do like the pd. Go to other organizations, have money to advertise in the newspapers, on social media. We can get to a broader base of individuals as well as with the Unified School District and city college and as did chief mentioned the new ems core program that would make it move forward. Now we see the members trend backwards. I dont want San Francisco not to go backwards to to remain the leader on these efforts. My next question is there is talk about and this is chief nicholsons presentation. I heard talk about in the other presentations. What is your reaction to and can you talk about the testing and what impact that has had on the makeup of the recruitment classes and makeup of body of the firefighters . The city and county of San Francisco went to the National Testing network because it was cheaper. The impact it has to go throughout side vendor which has a fee. There is a provision to waive the fee not easily accessible to recruit. It made it more difficult for our youth locally within the bay area to gain access. It also requires extra time and effort. We have other requirements like you have to pass a physical agility test, tnt license, the effort was more restrictive. In doing so we notice our numbers of those eligible started to shrink and the united fire women mentioned the impact as well as other groups. What i would like to see if we are going to remain in that system, that San Francisco make an effort to provide waivers for our communities of color or low income who are unable to afford it as well as provide real recruitment to be able to reach to them and lead them on the path not only just there but actually to begin to bring it to these communities to bring them to our department. Do we have discretion over that test . Do we have to participate in that National Testing network . Our department of Human Resources is under their department. The police, fire do not necessarily have control over it. We would have to get an agreement for the city to do it themselves. I would be happy to have that conversation. We have the department of Human Resources on the phone. It sounds like that is something we can check on. Please stay on the line. Unless any colleagues have questions for you we will talk a little bit with hr Human Resources and open up for Public Comment. Supervisor peskin and mar. Supervisor haney is with us as well. Any questions for president buford . Thank you, president buford nor your leadership. It is much appreciated. I know that we have worked together a few years back around some of the work at sfusd and city college and this is related but i wonder if you could speak how you see that. It was mentioned but how you see the work with s. F. U. S. D. And chief nicholson as well. What are the things we can do better with our other institutions and new programs and approaches . Is there anything positive out of that . Anything to do to support . Thank you, supervisor haney. You were setting up the meeting. A lot of youth understand there was a path they could consider to move forward so the exposure was important. If we can get youth excited to share their story that would take our work from us. Thank you for your effort goes to bring us together. I know it was to be funded. I am not sure how you were able to stop that but i would love to see it continue to expand it as well. Even like something having paid cadets. We have fiery serve. Having another auxiliary to allow them to work sidebyside for Public Safety would be another way to actually get more youth excited. My mother started off as a meter maid before moving to the sheriffs department. It was her exposure that brought it over. Thank you and i would love to sit down with you some more to expand these programs. Supervisor safai a question is related to the question supervisor haney just raised. The role that city college can play in helping to build out and expand a pipeline, diversity pipeline to the Fire Department given the student demographics that reflect the priority africanamerican and people of color and women recruits that we are trying to tap into for the Fire Department. City college has a Degree Program in fire science technology. A number of Certificate Programs including firefighter academy. Can you speak to your thoughts how city college with be leveraged more in the Diversity Efforts of the Fire Department . Chief nicholson, i would love to hear your thoughts as well. Thank you, chair mar. City college is a great resource. It is an automatic pipeline, i would say. Very strong pipeline for us, but what we are seeing with city college is there is a lack of diversity in terms of women in the fire science, africanamericans in the classes as well as africanamericans in the ems classes. We have to go upstream even more. If i can elaborate. They have been great but they are members of the Fire Department but they have gone on their own. There is exposure as chief nicholson mentioned if we could expand that more. That is an Academy Degree you can get or certificate. We need to also expand it to the point where ems is another portion of it and prevention and think of that. There is a small collaboration but room for improvement there as well. I would love to follow up with you on that. Chair mar, ms. Simply has her hand raised. Ms. Simley. I did have a question for chief nicholsons in regards to ems cohort. That is close to your heart to have an opportunity to talk to your staff about this and bringing this to the southeast part of the city. Do you have in this budget support for that cohort . What does that support look like . Thank you for the question. Yes, it is very close to my heart. If i can just explain a little bit about our budget. It is 423 million, 91 is salary and benefits. We have equipment breaking down all of the time, and if we dont have equipment recant respond. Last year i asked for more staffing for the ambulances because we were running at level zero, which means we cant respond to calls because we dont have enough ambulances and personnel on the street. That was turned down. I would love to be able to get some funding for this, but our budget right now is razor thin with the cuts we have been asked to make. I cant afford equipment to get our folks out the door. That is a huge problem. I also know that equity is a huge problem. If the mayors budget office, if the board of supervisors can find funding, please help us get money for it. It is extremely important. We are going to come back to more questions on budget after Public Comment. I appreciate that, director finley. Part of the reason we had this hearing is because we know that departments are given a lump sum, there is a certain amount dedicated to fulltime benefits and staffing and the capital requirements. There is always going to be tradeoffs. That is why we wanted the conversation now. That is part of the reason why the mayor asked for audit within sfpd hiring processes and we wanted to expand be that conversation. This is not to point fingers. It is to have a real open and honest conversation now. We thought it would be a good exercise to do compare and contrast to what each department is doing to better understand the resources and dedication each department has, but we are at a time where we are going to have to find a way. We have to find a way in this budget conversation to make a dedicated commitment to these principles today. We will come back to that. If it is okay with the chair, i would like to stay on the topic of the testing. If the person speaking on behalf of the Human Resources department is on the phone or if it is anna, we need to hear from the department of Human Resources because in both sfpds presentation and sf Fire Department, there was conversations about testing. I would like to hear you say a few words to understand better particularly with the Fire Department with the National Testing network is a requirement, does the city have to use that process . Why did we move to process of testing that required a fee for applicants. Does the Human Resources division consider these factors as barriers to people in Diverse Communities when they are factoring in the process of testing . Obviously from what we have heard today having a Fee Associated with the test and not as acceptable has been a barrier for the Fire Department. It sounds like the Police Department works on waving the fees and bringing the access to the applicants. We would like to hear your thoughts on that before we open up to Public Comment. I do have our director of Employment Services and dave johnson, manager of Public Safety team, with me. Identify yourself. Chief of policy. We move to the National Testing network in 2012, and a few numbers we have seen since then 8321 people have passed the test. But we see disparities in those outcomes. 479 of those that passed were women. 20 were africanamerican. [indiscernable] we have put a pause on the testing so we can do an evaluation to make sure that we are recruiting the right candidates to serve in these critical roles. We hope to complete that audit in a few months. I will maybe from here pass it to dave johnson, the Testing Process and a little bit more information. This is dave johnson. Can you hear me . Yes. I just want to say chief nicholson is exactly correct. We do differentiate among protected groups in not necessarily good ways. The challenge in testing the three years is to find the instrument that minimizes your differences. We believe that nts is a leader in the industry in doing this. Testing cannot account for what is outside our control. Environment and education. We have to deal with what is in if applicant pool. We cant erase that. My job is to find the instrument to minimize those differences. We believe we have found that in the National Testing network. We well come any instruments to further minimize the differences. 8,000 people passed the test that is since 2015. In 2012 for the Fire Department we used the test from ergometrics and the National Testing network. [please stand by] we use the same standards that are used for qualifying for assistance at the community colleges. Our city college they dont charge. Thats not part of the current calculation. I want to talk about the origin of the candidates. It showed 48 between 2015 and 2017, 48 of the people on eligible list were from greater bay area, nine bay area counties. 49 were from california outside of the nine bay area counties. 23 were from out of state. We wont see great impact opening up National Testing. By requiring that, it tends to limit the applicant pool to california. I know that back when i cutler bayered started with the Fire Department, it was part of the academy as a money saving, they removed from the academy and required to get on the eligible list. We recognize that the e. M. T. Pool not diverse. Moving those 12 weeks of training out of the academy and putting it ueder preris prerequt minimize the diversity of the incoming pool. My question, is it required to use this Testing Service . Could you make that change if it was deemed necessary . Most definitely. The testing for police, fire and sheriff entry is choice of the city. What are the standards by which you choose the Testing Process . We would have to find something that shows impact than what were using now. Less adverse impact. Can you define adverse impact . Who defines that . Its differences. Okay, how many particular group of whats the pass rate for groups within the applicant po pool. If theres difference among them, if we can find an instrument that minimizes those differences and shows less differences than now, then we would doubt that instrument. Have you looked at the demographics require to prior to changing your Testing Process of the hired pool . Not the recruited pool but the actual hired pool within the department . No, i cant say weve looked at that. All three department have the list. As we pointed out previously, for example, Fire Departments could have hired 420 black firefighters since 2015. There were 420 in the pool. During that time period, they hired 487. They could have hired 420. The diversity was there. That wasnt really my question. My question was looking at the hiring rate prior to hiring rate after and was there fee to take the test prior . There was not. That right there already, even if you have a waiver system, its amazing to me that only 47 people have applied. That says to me probably people dont know that theres a process by which to pla apply fa waiver or its cumbersome or at least in their mind it might be. Do any of my colleague have questions regarding the Testing Process . We can come back to that mr. Johnson. Thank you for that. That will be something that we would like to see. Actually, director finley, yes. Do you want to ask any questions about the Testing Process . I have a question about the Testing Process. What kind of strategies or work has our Law Enforcement agencies have with the Civil Service commission. What kind of recommendations have they put forth . Thats directed to you mr. Johnson. Could you repeat the question please . My question was, directed toward Law Enforcement sorry. What kind of strategies and recommendations have you put forth in your tenure in regards to testing or hiring Recruitment Strategies in your agency . Maybe we can start with chief nicholson and then chief scott and then the sheriff. Thank you. I have been in office for just over a year now. Internally what we started speaking about was certainly how were hiring, Succession Planning all that kind of stuff. Bestarted looking at the data and we have not had any conversations with the Civil Service commission to date. Not in front of the entire Civil Service commission. Chief scott . Supervisor, let me make sure i understand your question. Can you repeat the question . Ill let director finley repeat it. Chief scott, this is director finley, just following up and checking with the agencies in regard what kind of strategies and recommendations or support or connections the Civil Service commission for your agency . We have worked directly with the Civil Service commission of late after supervisor waltons proposed resolution. Thats been an ongoing conversation. We picked up lot of steam after the proposed resolution. I have been part of some of those conversations. We have a deputy chief, gregory yee whos with that particular body of work and commander ford whos on that call. Thats ongoing. I like to point out, in terms you have our efforts and equity and Diversity Efforts for hire, recruitment and promotion, we have Strategic Plan created. Its a very comprehensive plan which we think will actually put us in a much better position to be successful in this area. Same question for sheriff. We are obviously coordinating with dave and staff. We havent spoken to Civil Service commission directly. Chief scott mentioned, were all part of the process now to make sure were responsive to anything that comes up. I like to direct my same question to partners at d. H. R. Were currently working on a report to the Civil Service commission that we will be presenting hopefully next month. This is in response to supervisor waltons resolution and request from the commission on the review of hiring, Selection Process and training in police and Sheriff Departments. Thank you director finley. We can come back to actually, i like to hear from since we have a representative body, is either president buford or director sims still on the phone . I like to have them weigh in and hear what they have to say about or if they have background or information on the Testing Process and the move to this National Network and what their opinion and feeling is on this. I was part of the group. Im getting on the board of 798. We did speak directly to the Civil Service commission when this process was going to be implemented. We were against it. We felt that it would again, take away from the applicant pool more diverse applicant pool. We spoke directly to the Civil Service commission. At the time it was a costsaving measure. Thats how it was presented to us. Our statements were not heard. Can you say what the result you say you knew what the results will be and what they are. Can you underscore that for the record please . I think that if you look at our applicant pool when i got into the department was about 20 female. I believe its way beneath that now. Its about 10 if not less of our applicant pools are female. It brings in when you start opening up to the whole country, i get lot of as 798 director, i get lot of inquiries about people who are coming into the bay area, coming into the community that dont hold the same values that we do. Outhey are inquirying about a jb when they never set foot in San Francisco or the bay area period. How theyre mentality and their political and their personal agendas are different than what we would like to see as a womens group. It changed the applicant for us. You arent reaching out facetoface, reaching out to the female communities to grasp and to encourage applicants. We arent getting or seeing those people successfully make it through the tower through our academy. At the end, you have people not succeeding and you dont have the hiring. We have one to two females per class. Whereas when i came through, we had five in our class. President buford . Director sims mentioned, when this first came out, usfw did bring the concerns. Thankfully to their efforts, were able to get a california license as a requirement to be hired. If it takes test, you have to get hired, prior to that, it would have opened up even more ]klczpwvc usfw mentioned that without having a ability to recruit within and open it up nationally, they felt members would drop. They put in one person into the budget at the firefighter level which no real budget for recruitment, no real direction. It made it difficult back in that time. We revisit that one individual, reclassify them, get a bigger budget in order to do recruitment like i mentioned on social media and at these other groups and also expanded to have few part timers so we can focus on the value of San Francisco and recruit within the bay area as much as possible. Chief scott . In your presentation on testing, you talked about theres testing on the road, saves applicant time and money. You talked about provides free test prep. What has been your experience in terms of the testing your Testing Network or Testing Processes said the same . What has the reaction been or what has been your experience since were talking about testing . We also used the National Testing network Testing Process. Its online application. We do share some of those same issues with the process that mr. There are some advantages to it. Ill turn this over to commander ford or dave johnson to talk about this. There are fees required and we worked on ways to try to not let that be a barrier as well. We have shared some of the same concerns that the Fire Department shared and sheriff. However, as they have pointed out, until we figure out a Better Process, we have to move forward with what we have. Commander ford, would you like to comment . Before you do that, i want to ask direct question to you chief scott, sounds like this is the decision thats ultimately left up to you as the chief. You have the ability to make that change if you need to. It would be good to see, thats one of the reasons why we have the office of Racial Equity here. Well have them to do independent analysis before and after, listening to what you have to say, have presented today. , all three departments and get some recommendations on things that could be improved to help with the diversity and recruitment. I want to ask, do you have the ability to change that Testing Processes . No. That process rest with the department of Human Resources. That part of the Testing Process. The decisionmaking on whether to use that test or not, it rest with hr . Yes. Okay. That would have been my question for all three departments. D. H. R. Has the ability to make that change. Do they go based on your recommendation . Im sure they would value our input and our recommendations, ultimately, they would make the decision. Okay. We can come back to that. I think dave was trying to comment. If you will supervisor, dave was trying to comment on that. The testing lives with d. H. R. Thats where the expertise is. However, were very open to discussion with each of our departments and we want to support them in hiring the best people and the most Diverse People they can. Commander ford, i didnt mean to cut you off. I wanted to underscore that point. If you have something you want to add, im happy to hear what you have to say. Were gong to move to Public Comment in a minute. We can come back to some of this stuff. Sir, i appreciate you circling back. I echo the chief position. That process a owned and resides with d. H. R. We rely on them to be of a resource and assistance to us with respect to the written. That is the process that lives and resides with them. Okay. Chief nicholson and sheriff, well come back to you on the issue of testing. I know theres probably some people that have been waiting on Public Comment. That concludes the main parts of the presentation. I know myself and some of my colleagues will have some questions coming back. Mr. Chair, if its okay with you, we can go to Public Comment now and then come back to line of questioning for the different departments. That sound good to me supervisor safai. If thats okay with the other Committee Members, why dont we go to Public Comment. Are there any callers on the line . Clerk operations will check to see if we have callers in it queue. For those who already connected by the meeting please press star followed by three to be added to the queue. For those already on hold in the queue, please continue to wait until youre prompted to begin. Youll hear a prompt informing you that your line has been unmuted. For those watching our meeting on cable channel 26 or streaming link or sfgovtv. Org, if you wish to speak, please call in by following the instructions that are on your screen. You will dial 4156550001. After you entered meeting i. D. , press the pound symbol twice. Please connect us to our first caller. I believe programs like these are very necessary in the community. Going into the program, i didnt know where i wanted to do with my life. I think i got the guidance necessary to push me forward. Now i plan ongoing nursing school. I feel like i can put an impact on my community. Seeing patients of colour, seeing young man of colour, really gave them the impact. It makes them comfortable seeing someone represent them. Thank you. Clerk next speaker. My name is ryan white. Im also a member of the cohort 9 from the e. M. S. Core. Im also a member of the San Francisco Fire Department and im also a member San Francisco black firefighters association. I feel like programs like e. S. Corps are great. Like my brother previously said, people in these communities see People Like Us coming to them for their help. Im really looking forward to possibly getting Something Like this in the city. It will make a difference and help me out in my life a lot. I feel like it made me a better person from the counseling and human circles and just the way the e. M. T. Class was taught. It was a smaller group. It was easier for me to learn that way. Im just very appreciative. Thank you. Good afternoon everybody. Im brian pointer. I want to give a brief introduction to myself prior to getting into my commentary. Im the oldest of six sib siblings. Graduated from cal state east bay in 2017 and immediately jumped into e. M. S. Corps. I want to go on record and that i am San Francisco Fire Department candidate. Ive been trying to stay active in the community by kind of making an impact with the youth both in my community and out, gathering them and cleaning up neighborhoods, giving them opportunities to make money as well as sports and participating in athletic and opportunities. Providing these opportunities in the youth as an individual, lets me know that kind of speaks to the impact that e. M. S. Corps provides. Im cohort 16, thats the last graduating class. It speaks to just the impact that this has on the community. What everybody saying and thinking is completely true. E. M. S. Corps and individual mike gibson and dave ricotta are providing the best e. M. T. Training as well as life skills. These individuals have impacted my life as well as so many others before me. Clerk thank you very much for the discussion mr. Pointer. Thank you very much. Captain julie miles San Francisco Fire Department. Ive been instructor and im also currently a city college instructor. United Fire Service Women has been part of this discussion for a long time. Let me read a statement that i committed via email. United Fire Service Women is an Employee Group in the San Francisco Fire Department. It is 501c3 nonprofit. Part of our mission is to ensure a diverse and unified department. We are committed to building and strengthening our department and also ongoing training and opportunities to both men and women in our department. United Fire Service Women continues to participate in numerous recruitment and Community Outreach activities including hosting girl fire camps, Bay Area High School girls, school visits, and other community events. We recently hosted a firefighter orientation night in june, recruitment event via zoom. Focused mainly on women applicants. We have 72 participants and help to guide these potential candidates through the application process. San francisco Fire Department has the highest percentage of women in any department nationwide. At 15 we are still a minority of Overall Department and need to continue our efforts in recruiting diverse and capable applicants. What we have found in our near recruitment is this. You have to see yourself in the job in order to have that opportunity. For me, as a woman of color, i didnt grow up thinking i can be a firefighter. I had to see other women and other people of color in the job as firefighters to see that i could be a firefighter as well. In order to address diversity, we need ongoing opportunities for positive interaction with community members. Community outreach and events are also forms of recruitment. Our union is boosting recruitment efforts. Clerk thank you very much for your comments captain. [indiscernible] i cant hear. [indiscernible] we are not able to hear this caller. Clerk are you still there . Now we can hear you clearly. Keep it like that. Will you resume your comment . Stay on the line for a moment. Were going to queue up the next speaker and come back to you. Good morning members of the board. Im from the e. M. S. Corps group in 2015 cohort 9. Im currently a full time registered nurse for the laguna hospital. At the beginning of covid19 epidemic in march, i was chosen intern unit due to outbreak amongst the regular staff. Not one patient of laguna honda hospital has died of covid19. Theres not one day where i look at my accomplishments and do not attribute my progression to e. M. S. Corps. Members of the board, im asking kindly to please continue providing the youth the bay area the opportunity that was given to me and others. Thank you. Clerk next speaker please. Hello supervisor mar, chair, supervisor safai thank you for being here and having this hearing today. My name is keith. Im current recruiter for the San Francisco Fire Department. I been a member of thc department for 23 years. Im also president of sf rescue and a publicly elected official here in San Francisco. I listened to all morning and i have just a few comments. They have to do the n. T. N. It was used because of cost. They externalized that cost to the applicant. That has caused a disparity in the applicant pool. As recruiter, i recommended several minority candidates. Unfortunately, the chief hasnt taken the time to listen to my recommendations and many of those candidates who identify as minority, Spanish Speaking women. I recommended a trans woman several times and the department refused to interview these candidates. Its important to utilize that resource in every way possible. Ive been completely left out of conversations that i think the recruiter should be part of. Why is this . The department shown how much they believe in this process by making this job an entry level position. To me thats not appropriate. The n. T. N. Is proprietary. We have no idea what formula they use to read out the candidates. Thats what we used to gauge what applicants were going to interview. Can you please allow the speaker to finish his comment. Since hes a recruiter for the department . Yes. That sound good. Can you finish your comment . Thank you for that, supervisor safai. I think that the e. M. S. Certification how impacts diversity is important. Were going to have an e. M. S. Corps for the department, we need to include the recruiters to make it the best it can be. My relationship with the e. M. S. Corps in alameda precedes my time as a recruiter. The chief mentioned that we have events at mlk day. We only had two female africanamerican women, 13 africanamerican men total at station 49. We had opportunities to be mlk. There were lot of people that we could have talked to but they refuse to pay a fee of 250. Thats why we didnt participate. This year and theres been times in the past that theyve completely refused to pay and i had to go and be their break. Just show up and do it anyway. Thats what ill end with. If were going to have a department with a recruiter, it has to be in ways that are not just in name only. Thank you very much. Clerk next caller. Hello everyone. Im a San Francisco native raised in district. Im speaking in support of e. M. T. Certification program. The program chief nicholson spoke of earlier. As the chief stated, the city program will be modeled after e. M. S. Corps. E. M. S. Corps is an east Bay Organization that offers culturally relevant curriculum and Wraparound Services to qualify and certified e. M. T. S. This program will give opportunity for the city to collaborate with this organization and offer a pathway into the fire service as well as other allied healthcare careers. E. M. S. Corps has a successful tenure history in Alameda County with over 343 graduates who gone on to careers as firefighters, nurses, med techs and even a few who have been accepted into med school. We need this program in San Francisco. We want to be a part of the progressive change that will offer these at risk young adults an opportunity to live and work in the city that they were raised. We want to be part of rise of income of africanamericans in San Francisco. Which is currently 46,000. It is the lowest of all ethnicities. Im a member of the San Francisco Fire Department working on my 23rd year. When i entered the department in 97, there were 40 africanamerican women in the department. We are currently in our teens. We represent less than 1 of the staffing at San Francisco Fire Department. More of us on the latter end of our careers than those that are just beginning. There are more of us leaving and retiring than offered entry at the academy. Clerk thank you very much for your comment. Next speaker please. Good morning everyone. Im Antoine Davis im a graduate of the e. M. S. Corps im currently a San Francisco firefighter. I been a fitter fo ive beena fittefirefighter for four years. It teaches us life skills. It teaches us skills thats not taught in skills. Give us the ability to create a job and make means for our family. I appreciate the program and the leadership that it brought. Im currently one of the people that trying to bring this program into the city based on what it taught me. I just appreciate everyone for listening. I would love to allow you guys to understand the full depth what this brings and the inner circles we went through to address traumatic experiences we had. The psychology aspect it brought and allowing us to get into e. M. T. Without that program i wouldnt be a firefighter today. E. M. S. Corps gave me ability to do that. In my cohort, i have couple of people who are doctors. One of my classmates is finishing his third year in med school. Multiple nurses and firefighters and Police Officers along with other officials all throughout the Health Community around the bay area. Thank you guys so much for your time. Clerk next speaker please. I its not about quotas or preferential treatment or having equal numbers of people or whatever. Really about removing unnecessary barriers and recruitment and creating qualified applicants and to all the kinds of things reported today. What an outstanding effort has been made. Also the outstanding sophistication of the supervisors who are asking analytical questions. That concludes my remarks. Clerk thank you ms. Chapman. Next speaker please. Good afternoon my name im a San Francisco native and a longtime resident out of district 10. Im adding my comment to this matter today and piggy backing off what chief mentioned about city e. M. T. Is our program that we are developing specifically for San Francisco residents in following the model of e. M. T. Port its been reiterated through other Public Comments how critical this program is. We are as a strong team of individuals of color based out of San Francisco longtime residents, Strong Community access and myself included, investing in our program and development to solve systemic problems moving forward to address the numbers and the statistics. Its critical that we are putting out there that we are developing creating this program so we can serve our community and solve these problems. Your investment is critical. I wanted to add my piece to that. Thank you very much. Clerk any further speakers on the line . That completes the queue. Supervisor safai thank you so much mr. Clerk and operation for all the callers and shared their perspectives during Public Comment. I want to thank supervisor safai for calling this important hearing and thank chief nicholson and chief scott and the sheriff and the director finley and president buford and director sims from local 798 for your presentation. These are very Critical Issues for us to deal with as a city now to ensure that our First Responders, Public Safety department are reflect diversity of our communities, especially now in this historic moment, reckoning of systemic racism in Law Enforcement and Public Safety. I think this hearing has highlighted how we have made progress in our department. Theres a lot of good work happening to ensure diversity in our recruitment, hiring and promotions but theres a lot of need to improve. Thank you and i think we want to it will be helpful if we can organize our questions and discussions on by Department Given that we heard from Fire Department, Police Department and the Sheriff Department on diversity practices. We can start with the Fire Department. Weve already had a lot of data already. Supervisor safai just a note for the record, i know chief scott has to leave by 1 00. He has let us know in advance. If its okay with the chair, i like to start with the Police Department first. Before we go the into Public Comment and some of the other question, chief scott, the question was, how much of your budget is dedicated to your Recruitment Division . I see its eight full time staff. How much of your budget does that equate to and the second question we asked is what is the current demographic makeup of the Police Department . I had the demographic chart emailed to mr. Carroll. If he has it, i would ask if he can put that on the screen for everyone. Just a moment. Ill answer the second question. In terms of salaries alone, the total yearly cost is 1,224,326. Thats just only for the full time recruiters. That doesnt include the 81 part time recruiters. Recruitment units in terms of salaries and benefits 1,224,326. They also on top of that budget for recruitment event. Were allocated at budget for recruitment event. Im trying to get that impact number. I dont have it yet. Theyre getting that for me. Supervisor safai does that include your travel budget and your ability to put on events and different things. Is that just purely salary thats purely salary. Other part is the number travel budget for the events. I have a message out to our chief Financial Officer to get that information to us before this hearing is over. Supervisor safai other thing is i said pretest prep mentorship, surveys, testing on the road, fee waivers. That all seem like it would factor into the cost of what you allocate to recruitment. When you say 81 part time people involved in recruitment, what percentage of their time is dedicated of the 81 people, is dedicated to recruitment. That is factor into the budget of allocation. It could. Theres no set time. Basically, the external cost of putting the show on the road and the cost of the 81 part timers, thats a whole separate financial piece of the puzzle. That doesnt fall in the normal duty. It normally falls into what we call e. W. W. They are part overtime to participate in different events. Supervisor safai it will be good for you guys to compile that information to let us know how much that along with the budget for travel and other activities that you do jyes, sir is available. Well compile that for you. Just to give you clarification in terms of putting the show on the road, traveling and doing the traveling recruitment process, we do that about twice a year. Most of the expenses are not spent traveling across country. On occasion, we do do that. Theres some expenses that are incurred during this process. Our budget 250,000. We actually coordinate with d. H. R. On that. Last year we spent 185,000 of the 250,000. Some of that we were able to Carry Forward from the fiscal year 1819 budget. Yearly, 250,000. Okay. Supervisor safai did you want to review the current demographic information of your department . Yes. I know thats small font. I will go through it. Lets start at the bottom. The question was asked male and female. That last column on total, you see the sfpd total, you asked total count for sfpd, that number is 266 total. 84. 92 male, 15. 08 female. If you go up to the top and down, each department of is broken down by male and female and by ethnicity race. White 48. 01 , that breaks down to 6 of the department is white male, 7. 25 of department is white female. In terms of black, 9. 46 of the department is black and that break down is 7. 60 male and 1. 86 female. Hispanic 17. 51 of our department is hispanic and break down is 14. 06 male hispanic and 3. 45 female hispanic. Asian, break down is 16. 89 , breakdown is 15. 34 male and 1. 55 female. Latino, 5. 92 , that breakdown is 5. 44 male, 0. 49 female. American indian is. 31 and that breakdown is. 81 male. Other, 1. 55 with the breakdown of 1. 3 male and 0. 22 female. One other question that was asked by supervisor peskin, this information is good as of last year when we did this research on how we compare in terms of gender diversity with other departments. I will read it off to you. In terms of other departmentses that part of departments that was part of this outreach. Were 15. 08 female, los angeles pd, they are 19 female, 81 male. San diego police, 16 female, 84 male. Sacramento, 16 female, 84 male. Oakland, 13 female, 87 male, san jose, 10 female, 90 male. California Highway Patrol 6 female, 94 male. This is a part of our Strategic Plan that went out. You can take a look at other departments are like. It gives us a guide how were doing nationally. Were about 5 over the National Average female to male. National average is right around 10. Supervisor safai thank you chief. One other thing that i want to talk about. I have my own i think you heard me say this before, i have my own personal experience not having gone through the application process. I worked with a young woman of color that went through the prosprocess. One of the things that struck me, this was also in the department of justice recommendation, your hiring process is cumbersome. Theres an entire process from beginning to end. One of the things weve talked a bit about testing today. Were going to ask office of Racial Equity to make some recommendations and look at some of the things they heard today and look at the presentation and ask them to come back and give us thoughts. One of the things i want to talk about theres an interview process that happens in your hiring process and i think i saw in chief nicholsons presentation the discussion about Interview Panel. I understand that can you talk about the interview process that happens in different stages of your hiring. As i understand, its retired officers that do many of the interviews as par o as part of e process. Can you talk about that . Ill open it up. What youre referring to is the background process. Let me break down our process. Starts with the online application. Then we have the physical ability test and then the interview. Oral Interview Panel is our sworn members. Not retired. After they get through that, then we go through triage and Background Investigations. Thats where we have some retired members, 960, that are part of that process. We have full time background investigator who are sworn. We were in the process of tricking some transitioning some of those positions to nonsworn. We have a combination of retired and sworn on the Background Investigation process. The additional evaluation happen after that and then theres the hiring. Those are the steps to our current process. We did conduct a fairly exhaustive study in 2018 and took a look back of our hiring processes, where were losing candidates, trying to identify where we can improve. We were able to bring up pretty important information. For women, lot of women were willing being lost in the process with the physical ability test. We were able to make some changes and modify that and put together some training for people that interested. Its open to everyone but focusing on women, sworn members put those classes on to help people get through that test. You saw commander tornado present. Now were up to 22 of our recruits and academy are women. Thats been an improvement. Were looking to get better. That report was done by anna who now works with the city. Its a collaboration with the Global School public policy. It gave us good information. Ill stop there. Commander ford have couple of comments as well. You encapsulated the process beautifully. Just to drill down little further, in my mind, having ben former background investigator myself. It breaks down we had phase a, which is the written, physical and oral. Youre successful during those process and you transition to the second phase, to your point supervisor, the interview process are two fold. There is an oral and interview during the first phase, the written physical piece is just a gauge for the job. Its part of the initial Testing Process. Once you get over the hump and in the become phase, there is another interview per se. Thats the intaker interview a takes place with the assigned background investigator. They welcom look at personal hiy and indepth profile of the candidate and during that process that you have facetoface contact and you start to drill down who the person is. Supervisor safai i have i heard you say there was a study done on the hiring process. They identified that the physical portion was where there needed to be improvements or recommendations for change, particularly for female candidates or recruits. Has there been an analysis done that talks specifically about the overall hiring process in how and where maybe many of our other diverse candidates are lost in the process and recommendations for improvement . Have all done that analysis . I know youre doing it in the hiring process as we speak, has it been done through the lens of Racial Equity and gender equity and Sexual Orientation . All those things. Yes, that was all part of this report that we had done. Part what we saw in terms of moving lot of the diverse candidates during a Testing Process after they take the initial n. T. N. , many of our candidates dropped out after that point. We didnt really have a solid mechanism to reconnect with them. That was one of the improvements that came from that piece. We saw hiring rates, dropouts some of our candidate pools, africanamerican among them. Improving that process and working with d. H. R. To be able to reconnect with candidates that showing interest. One of the things that came out of that report, we have a Better Process now. Again, that part of the testing at the n. T. N. Portion of the testing is own by d. H. R. We have to work with d. H. R. To get access to those candidates. That is part of our improvement in terms of reaching back to those candidates to see if they are still interested in following up. There were other things that came out in the report. To answer your question, yes. It was a pretty exhaustive report look at all pages of the hiring process. Supervisor safai any of my colleagues have any questions in particular . Supervisor haney thank you. It steams like there was some recommendations potentially that would have required maybe other departments or h. R. To do things differently. Was that taken by them . Did they look at their own practices, were you just looking at your practices . There are some things you were saying because you have to go through them and they made a decision about certain things that you only have so much control over it. Thank you for that question. It was collaborative. Definitely d. H. R. Listened to our recommendations. Another one of the things that was an improvement in the process. We used to do a trigger pool test as part of preemployment Testing Process. We were losing lot of people, particularly females to that test. Working with d. H. R. , they changed that process to a web stream test and we saw a tremendous amount of improvement in the pass rate. That was a direct collaborative effort with d. H. R. It is collaborative. D. H. R. Owns that part of the process. They do listen and take our feedback seriously and try to work with us. They do work with us. You may have included this. Just unclear. Is it the sense the applicant pool that we get is significantly more diverse overall than who ultimately enters the department . Let me go to supervisor haney i understand the focus on where people are being held up within the process. Im wondering if the assumption there is the applicant pool is more diverse. Let me go to the actual data. This report that i was referring to compare data from 2013 to 2018. The report was done, completed before summer of 2018. Looking at the rate of diversity between 2013 and 2018 we saw increases in black and hispanic applicants in that 5year period. Pretty significant increases in that 5year period. The actual hire rate, we saw increases in some of those areas. It wasnt as significant as the amount of applicants. We did
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