Awedenens that didnt know what i was talking about and understood race discrimination, but most men at that time thought that, yes, the law was rightled with genderbased distinct ons but were in womens favor. A woman didnt have to serve on a jury if they didnt want to. The eavesdropping reflected curiosity and thats what drove me as a lawyer. Charlie a rare conversation with two Supreme Court justices. E Supreme Court kicked off until october after the death of Justice Scalia. We hear about the court and love of law from two justices. Let me begin and take note of the fact that they have written books. My beloved world. And just ties ginsburgs book, in my own words. Looking back on your life and even though it was incorporated in speeches, what was that like for you to put your own life in focus and how was that . Is a my own words collection of speeches, tributes to colleagues. Rmp a pmphmpymp of me and my life is told in the introductory as my official authors have written. That will come out in the distant future. [laughter] charlie but your book my beloved world you said i am my mother. What did you mean . As i tell her, good and bad. I am my mothers drive. She aspired to be more than her circumstances. She wanted to go desperately to go to college, and she lived in the poorest circumstances in her Home Community and she would watch the College Girls walk by her house going to the post office, because that the towns social life at the time and all she talked about was someday going to college and getting my brother and i into college was her living her dream. She wanted me to be a journalist. I dont think she was ever convinced there was much value in law. Perhaps when i got on the Supreme Court, she might have changed her mind. [laughter] but i lived that dream for her and i lived all of her dreams because she set the capital for me of striving a way to do better, of trying to be the best person that i could humanly could be. Thats how my mother did that. I tried to emulate all of those things in my mother that are best. When i do things bad, i said hats being the problem. Charlie you once said that watching charles scanning and listening in on their conversations was an important aspect of growing up. Sure. Who doesnt like to eavesdrop. Ut i think the eavesdropping reflected curiosity and thats what drove me as a lawyer. And i always tell people, but being a lawyer is like being a voyeu rmp in other peoples lives. You participate more, but you get to, in every case, you get to learn about how people or an industry or a Government Entity interacts in the world, what they do and whats important to them and to be able to enjoy that, you have to have curiosity. Listening to others and their conversation was a way teaching myself things that i would not have otherwise learned. Charlie Justice Ginsburg, when did you fall in love with the law . People ask me, did you always or a supreme udge Court Justice . [laughter] when i think what life is 1940s,this city in the be a is apiring to judge, because there werent any. And Franklin Roosevelt appointed e first woman to the First FederalAppellate Court in 1936. He stepped down the year i graduated from law school and then there were none. Etlerohnson appointed hufst and became the first secretary of education and then there were none again. So i didnt think about being a clinton becameil president. And looked around at the federal bench and said, you know, they all look like me, but thats not how the great United States works. He was determined to appoint members of minority groups and one of numbers, not as the time curiosity. He apointed over 25 member to the Federal District court and the trial bench and 11 to courts of appeals and i was one of those lucky 11. No president , by the way, ever went back to the way it was. President reagan didnt want to be outdone, so he made a nation wride search for the first woman. Charlie sandra day oconnor. Hen she left the court and alito came on, it marked a change in the court, because she was gone. I have said more than once that the term that she left, whenever the court divided 54 and i was one of the four, i would have been one of the five if she remained with us. There was that enormous difference. Charlie my question has been influenced by people, your husband. Your late husband had a huge influence. You have said to me that you would not have made it to the Supreme Court without him. No question about it. People who observed at the time said, well ruth might have been on the list, maybe 22 and 2, but marty made her number one. Charlie how did he do that . He had a little book of people he contacted. [laughter] and mainly my academic colleagues and those days ell well, this is before my first big job in d. C. And got in touch with academic colleagues and lawyers that knew me from the lawyering work i had done and he had many letters sent to the president. And i think the most important thing of all and this was almost out of the blue, my rabbi moynihane, was senator and how did that will come about . Well, it was a connection that marty was very pleased to, but it didnt come to me then. The president was on a plane with senator moynihan going to some democratic functions in the city and said, pat, please tell me, who would you pick for the Supreme Court . And senator moynihan said, well, mr. President , im not a lawyer so you shouldnt be asking me that question. The president said, i value your judgment, who would you pick and senator moynihan said ruth bader ginsburg. And he said why. I think shes very good. I could not have a harvard law egree. So many things occur and you dont know if they are going to turn out to be good or bad and it was good. There was a celebration of the 50th anniversary of the building. So the building was completed in 935 and this was 1985. Griswold was solicitor germ. He was to make a speech of great advocates before the court. 1985, he realizes that he cant have a list thats all men. After he finishes with Thurgood Marshal and the next person he mentions is ruth bader ginsburg. When i went through my nomination process, i was told that everyone should have a marty ginsburg. [laughter] he came into the preparation session with followeders, including ruths speeches, her entire schedule for her entire life and binders filled with tax information. That was the press reported inrackly and the reason they had no problem was because marty was a tax lawyer. [laughter] in our home, in our personal life, i did all the taxes. [laughter] [cheers and applause] charlie and guess who did all the cooking. Marty. All the president s men descended on my apartment and to go through my papers, meart made a delicious lunch. [laughter] charlie it was at one point, he would do all the special occasions and you would do dinners for the kids during weekdays and your daughter said maybe you should give that up, too. In fact, my daughter, who is an excellent cook herself, she learned from the master, i wasnt the every day cook, so i and they that i made all came out of the 60minute chef no month more than 60 minutes. Marty never allowed me to cook for company and he was the weekend cook. My daughter realized that addys cooking was better than mommy and mommy should be taken out of the kitchen. [laughter] the result of that, my wonderful daughter comes once a month and cooks for me and fills the freezer for individual dinners and feels responsible for getting me out of the kitchen and does president feel i should go back into it. The Supreme Court refrigerator is filled with some of the leftovers. [laughter] charlie whats the best experience for a Supreme Court justice. Interesting question. Charlie tell me. Im biased, i think being on the District Court was and since all of my colleagues have only had court of appeals experience with the exception of Justice Kagan who has never been a judge and only three Supreme Court justices with thrm experience. I find it hard to understand how you can really appreciate the life of a case if you havent really sat in a courtroom toll see that case develop and to understand the dynamics that create a record, that create the discussions thatnd up coming before the court on a. M. Ate review. In my judgment, if i was ever privileged to be asked as a president what should he or she should look look, i would say prior court experience. Charlie you get to see not only the case and the stories and the people who make up the stories. It helps to be a lawyer, as someone said, who knows the casesand knows about more than the district judge. [laughter] being a lawyer isnt critical, but there a is difference between trial and a. M. At lawyer. And the important difference is to build a reputation. And to know how difficult that can be. Yes. I think theres two entirely har moan just and a person cant be deprived of life, liberty or person or person be denied the equal protection of the laws. The constitution tells us to think about the individual. And the rights that the individual has. So i dont think there is dig charlie it no, sir an abstract but a reality in terms of it is ines cable for us to be aware of the impact of our decisions. In virtually every case of every ocial impact, we are receiving friends of the court briefs from virtually every impacted segment of society. So were we cant decide a bigissue case without hearing from all of the people who believe they will be impacted positively or negatively whatever our ruling might be. Part of n ines cable our work. And we are talking more fundamental which is obviously you cant rule, i dont think, without at least understanding what the consequences will be of your ruling. Not in terms of the law, but since the law is responsive to human developments, you have to know whats going to happen more broadly to be able to understand the choices you are making. And there are some cases where the law is clear and certain, like you have to be a certain age to run for office. The case we get. The special thing about the Supreme Court is for the most part we dont cases where everybody agrees, as we wait for what we call splits and other judges disagreeing about what the federal law is, whether con stutional provision, what it means in a particular context or against a statute passed by congress. So the wonderful input we have, by the time we get the case, we have the benefit of what other good mines on benches, state and federal have said about it. Charlie interesting to me at the District Court and a. M. Ate court level, there is a higher place that it can go, but if you are on the Supreme Court, the buck stops here and you are making the decision that is the inal decision. The district judges were talking about, they are the real power holders in the system because they sit in the courtroom. You cant get out and you are stuck with that judge from the day the complaint is filed until the final judgment and go up to the court of appeals. Then lost a lot of power. You were not the lady of the manor anymore. You had to carry it toll prevail and the Supreme Court and the magic number is five. So i have often said, when i write for the court, its never s if i were a queen. I have to take into account the views of my colleagues and reflect those in the opinion. Charlie how much do you think has ife as a legitimator influenced your sense as a Supreme Court justice . Well, for one thing charlie historic role you have played. Im sensitive to be what it is like to be on the receiving nd of questions. Fantastic fortune in that i was a lawyer when the Womens Movement was revived in this country. What we saying in the 1970s, its the case, the same thing at Abigail Adams said before but society wasnt prepared to listen in the 1970s. Society had already moved from the changes in the law to catching up to the changes that had already occurred in peoples lives. So to be able to advocate for that cause, to see results that could not have been achieved even in the 19 0s, was a fantastic opportunity, currently ex hill rating. Charlie those briefs that you wrote and those decisions that you have influenced, the proudest achievement of your life . Yes. I would say yes. And i thought of myself in those days as a teacher. My parents thought that teaching would be a good occupation for me because they would be welcomed there and werent welcomed as lawyers, doctors and engineers. An lize that my facing an audience, if they were facing odious,s krim, that was but most men thought it was rid gender distinct ons. A woman didnt have to serve on a jury if she didnt want to and that was a benefit. That says something as a woman as a citizen. The citizen has rights and obligation, obligations as rights. Men know they are part of the sit renry, because they cant escape. But women, they are expendable, they really dont need them. To get across that message, such a ped arch is stal. Many men thought they were spared to earn a living. Hat is a myth. And to get them to see what they regarded as favors and the wonderful expression that justin stal n used, the ped arch turned out to be a cage and confined women. To get the court to understand that there really was genderbased diss trim nation, that was a challenging job. I was just going to say as groundbreaking as your work as a egitimator was and notorious r. B. G. Will live on a lot longer. [cheers and applause] [laughter] what do you think of that . It is a absolutely amazing. And for an 8 yearold woman should be notorious. [laughter] i understand where it comes rom, thats the one thing. My diss sent in the Shelby County case and and that was the laugh laugh charlie you are a role model for many people, how do you see that . And you have spoken about Supreme Court might be very, to see aficial to have latino wome be in this will world. Earlier, we were in conversation with your editor, your book editor, and we were talking about when i embarked upon writing my book, i asked my memoirwhat makes a great and your editor and mine have said the identical same thing, that leaders can lead and feel when truth is being spoken or when its sort of a puton not to be believed or accepted. To the extent that i continue to try to live my life as a normal honesty within an that i define as valuable, rying to be both human and a justice, not that youre not [laughter] then i think i give people hope about being able to achieve the things they want to achieve, eastbound even though they might perceive in themselves limitations that the Society Society is otherwise imposing on them. Charlie you two can dream your dreams . And dont have to let the limitations that others impose n you or the once you put on yourself will potential. Thats what i perceive my role to be. To be continuing to be as much as i can be and those others who ive lives can also hope. Charlie be a part of the american frab rick life. They can be, too [applause] there was a line i used in the introduction to the book about the five jewish justices and the question is, what is the a book e tweb between cheaper in the Garment District and the Supreme Court justice and i said one generation, the opportunities opened to my mother and those opened to me. Charlie one generation . One generation. I once asked you because you are often called the Thurgood Marshal of the Womens Movement and you have said to me thats a comparison you reject because Thurgood Marshal went into didntn in the south and know he would be alive at the end of the day. Ap you will o book get that sense of what those warriors were up against. In fact, didnt know whether they would live to see another day. That was something i never ever encountered. My life was never in danger. And that was an enormous difference. Yes, i copied Thurgood Marshals by nd he led the court step step. He argued cases when he told the court and not before the court today. And when they couldnt bear it anymore, signed her sons baseball bat and picked it up and put it over her head and the beginning of the murder prosecution. Thats why they didnt put women on juries in those days. The Supreme Court said, we dont understand what the complaint is about. Any woman who wants to serve can go to the Clerks Office and sign up. If she doesnt sign up, shes not going to be called. The thinking was, if there were women on my jury, perhaps they wouldnt aquit me. But there is a good chance they would have convicted me of the lesser offense of manslaughter and not murder unless convicted and that was jury ok. That was 19 1. The change didnt come until the court that had the reputation to be conservative. Nd yet, that court struck down one federal law after another, one state law after another on the ground that they discriminated ash temporarily on the basis of gender. Charlie what does that say about the way the court works . There was a great constitutional law professor who said, the court should never be influenced by the weather of the ay, but inevitably, it will be influenced by the climate of the era. And thats what the court of the 1970s was influenced by. Charlie is that what the court of the 21st century has been with respect to Marriage Equality and samesex marriage, influenced by what is happening in the Larger Community . The climate. Im wondering whether i should answer at all. [laughter] charlie why are you wondering . She gets more cover than i do. Charlie thats an interesting question. Meaning she has given more, what, latitude . I think so. And rightfully so, she has earned it. She has rightfully earned it. Im old enough to be her