Times joins me now from washington. Would you say this is a test of the relationship between merkel and trump . It seems when i look at the body language of Angela Merkel, that she from the beginning has not known what to make of this man. Is there more clarity here . I think Angela Merkel is someone used to dealing with testosteronestyle men. She has dealt with Vladimir Putin in russia, bruce ghani in italy, erdogan in turkey. Now she is dealing with donald trump in the United States. The u. S. Is such a Major Trading partner and ally of the u. S. That she has to figure out how to work with the new american president. I think that is what you saw today whenever she may make of him and it would be wonderful to know what her inside thoughts are, she was going to make this relationship work. She came to washington to try to find common ground. I think the News Conference they held together was an illustration of two people literally poles apart on crucial issues. But at least from her perspective, trying very hard to find a way to work together. John i got the sense that she expressed, suddenly if you will subtly if you will, to donald trump that she will take care of this part of the relationship and he can take part of this relationship. She set out domains she thought germany would be better to handle and other aspects of the migrant crisis trump to deal with on his own and that would build into a kind of bifurcated relationship that might function very well. Yeah, i think that is right. I think she made a point of saying she is the leader of germany and will look after German National interest. She described a response to the migrant crisis that is obviously very different from what President Trump is talking about, but one that she thinks is suited to german interests. Likewise on trade, the other major bone of contention between the two of them. She said i am also here to lobby for an push german interests. She turned to him at one point and said a tradein is only worth doing if both sides win. I think you are right. She is saying i will play my corner of the court and you play yours. And that way, we will be able to coexist and even work together. John since before the end of the cold war, and merkel was a leader early on understanding how the forces work, demographics have been a warning sign in germany that the Workforce Needs to grow. It needs to grow somehow. The birth rate needs to rise. Part of the impetus for migrants to come into germany is to add to the workforce. It is not an argument donald with. Has much context he does not think about immigration in those terms. Is it possible merkel expressed to him, here is another way of looking at it, a lot of these nations need to think about bringing workers in because it is helpful for them for the reasons we want trade to work . People always say donald trump is surprisingly receptive to the arguments of people he meets. Ist said, the United States blessed with very different demographics than germany or other western European Countries. It has a younger population, more young people. That argument simply is not particularly applicable to the United States. We have other very valid reasons and historical reasons for being open to immigrants. Replenishing the workforce and creating new, younger citizens is not one of them. So i dont think that argument probably makes much of an influence on him. I wonder whether it is more on the trade side, where today the two talked about German Companies and the role in apprenticing and training and workers. That might be an area where chancellor merkel can present donald trump ideas that will make an impact. And that is the subject they discussed after the News Conference when they went back into the white house for lunch. John what do you think the urgency is for Angela Merkel to figure out exactly what Donald Trumps relationship or intentions are with Vladimir Putin right now . Angela merkel has always been the leader in the west who has kind of served as the bridge to Vladimir Putin. She understands him perhaps better than any other leader in the west. She certainly met him more perhaps than any other leader in the west. I think it is vitally important for her to figure out what kind of relationship donald trump is seeking. That is not an easy question to answer in the current environment because while President Trump came into office calling for a new kind of relationship and reset with russia, in recent days, and i think in part because of the continuing questions around the trump campaigns ties to the russians during the election, you have seen the administration stake out a more traditional position, making hayley the u. S. Ambassador to the human saying we can never trust russia. Where in a fluid moment you have a president who wanted to change the relationship but perhaps is finding out he has little room to maneuver to do that and may indeed and up with a relationship that is much closer to the one the Obama Administration had and what Angela Merkel would be comfortable with. John with chancellor merkel be in a position to say, look, bear down on this if you like, but this is not going to fly, these things, this never trust russia, and we have a problem in ukraine and we need to decide together how we are going to deal with it. That is a priority. I think probably what she will try to do is say i know Vladimir Putin better than anyone. I have been working this issue now for years. The whole minsk process, the diplomatic process to try to resolve the situation in ukraine is something the germans have spearheaded. The American Administration said last week to reporters in advance of this meeting that donald trump would be interested and curious about tesla merkel chancellor merkels take on Vladimir Putin. He does not actually know Vladimir Putin at all. I think he will quiz her about how best to deal with the russian leader. And perhaps, she could make an impact on him. He has a penchant for listening to people and taking their ideas to heart when they make a persuasive case. John did you get any sense of the friendliness of them . It is so different to see how they address the reporters at a meeting like this. Thought itnest, i was meticulously formal, very impersonal. There was no chemistry i could detect. But to be fair, chancellor merkel is a rainy intellectual. She is not a warm person. Even president obama with whom she had arguably the best relationship president obama had with a foreign leader, there was not a lot of sentimentality of putting their arms around each other. She is not like that. You will remember the famous episode years ago when president bush put his hands on her shoulders, and she short of sort of recoiled. She is a lowkey, very intellectual person. I would not have expected to see a very emotional display. That said, these are two people who have very little in common and are pulls apart are many issues. That distance came through today in the News Conference. John no touchyfeely. What about the notions of nationalism building in europe and some evidence such nationalist sentiments are building in the United States . What would she want to say to donald trump about that . She has gotten a bit of good news on that front recently. The far right populist party in the netherlands did not do as well as some thought it would earlier in the week in the election. She has got her own far right party in germany that months ago many in germany were very worried about. But in recent months, there is also evidence that party has declined in popularity. You are beginning to hear more about what they are calling a sort of trump backlash, that some of these far right populist movements in some European Countries appear to be running out of steam. So i think she probably feels better about that issue than she might have last november in the wake of Donald Trumps election. John mark landler, thank you so much. Great to be here, john. Ethan good evening. I am Ethan Bronner filling in for trouble in prose charlie rose. It was once one of the richest countries in the world. Govern for the past two decades by the socialist party and ravaged by corruption and inefficiency, it is now on the verge of collapse with spreading hunger, rent a crime, and triple digit inflation. Will it get . Is there a solution . And how should the Trump Administration react . Joining me in new york is chris abatini, professor of what american studies latin american studies and a Research Fellow at the center for latin american studies. I am pleased to welcome them to the program. Chris, youre in the studio with me. I will start with you. Speak about how it got so bad given all the wealth and talent venezuela was famous for at one time. It was a confluence of issues. In 1998 when huger chavez was elected, the twoparty system that dominated venezuela from us 30 years had basically imploded. You had an outsider candidate, Lieutenant Colonel who had staged a coup earlier came to power promising to clean up the system. And he did in since he completely did away with the old system. In doing so, he doubled down on Venezuelas Oil wealth which is considerable. Over the course of his patronagedriven, socialistoriented economy, he basically consolidated the economy around oil. Today, 96 of venezuelas will exports exports are based on oil. That was fine when it was based 120 a barrel. Today it is 40 a barrel and the country is hurting. Ethan there are questions of institutions being able to withstand the corruption that came in with this. The barriersown between the semistate owned oil company and government and raided its coffers. It also means he did not invest in infrastructure. Underminedupted and democratic institutions. The Supreme Court is firmly under his control. The Electoral Commission is under his control. It has been stripped of power. Ethan a little less than a year ago, you wrote in the Washington Post that venezuela is a powder keg. You said there is widespread social disorder triggering instability throughout the continent. Is that still true . Has something shifted and why . Great question. I think it is accurate to say in 2016, the biggest fear of those of us who follow venezuelan politics had was the possibility of the country exploding in terms of social unrest. There was in fact there were a number of episodes of instability on a citywide basis. However, the government hunkered down, deployed the armed forces to repress these protests as much as possible, and it managed to hold onto power. At the end of 2016 when the opposition managed to mobilize millions of the population on behalf of the recall referendum, the government blocked the effort which set the stage for what people thought was going to be a clash in the last couple of months of 2016. But lo and behold, an international supported dialogue process began immediately. That cooled the street down and basically the escalated the situation in 2016 and it came to an end. Describe the venezuelan population today is in a state of depression. They have moved through the stages of grief with regards to , to anger,referendum to bargaining. Now i think we are in a situation of depression weather does not feel like there is a sense of possibility or hope about political change. That helps explain why at the beginning of 2017, it has been calmer on the streets of ethan venezuela despite the fact the country is expressing a depression marked by hyperinflation and severe shortages. Dialogue you mentioned that cant things down was promoted by the United States government under president obama. I think the dialogue has collapsed. I would be eager to hear from both of you whether you think the dialogue was the right policy. Lets want to complement michael on what he said. It is a powder cake. He is absolutely right. It may seem depressed now. But what has happened is this desire to kill of the institutions and rules that could have mediated and provided something. You have a hyper polarized situation. 90 of families are food insecure. They are not getting enough. They do not have medicines coming in. People are waiting in long lines. There is a boiling cauldron of discontent. The government has postponed what would have been a constitutional or recall referendum and new elections for governors. The hope was there could be a dialogue. The problem was the United States and later the vatican intervened. Also the union of south american multilateral organizations try to foster dialogue. But there were no rules to the dialogue. They were holding the government accountable for the basic rules and writes it was violating. There are over 100 Political Prisoners in ethan venezuela and they are not being released or on the table for discussion. Ethan let me go back to something you said. Michael said a year ago it was a powder keg. Now he says it is in a state of depression. You say it is a powder keg. It seems theres a difference between whether it is about to blow or it is depressed. Could the streets explode . I think they could. The situation economically and socially has become so dire that people are basically scrounging and garbage to get food. People are starting. Poverty is at 80 . They are pursuing basic survival needs now. That does not mean there is not defeated discontent deepseated discontent. Should they begin to protest, i dont know where it will go. Ethan before we get to the dialogue, do you have the sense we spoke of moving from powder cake to depression, the impression you gave me is it is not about to explode. Do you feel it is . Did i misunderstand you . Of myhink your Analysis Review of 2016 is correct. I think at this point, the venezuelan opposition leadership has a guide gigantic challenge in front of it to somehow get over the sins of demoralization that exists in the venezuelan population and create a sense of belief again. Ethan that leads me to asking whether the dialogue approach was a problem. I think there needs to be some nuance thing in terms of how we understand the dialogues negative effects in terms of taking away the oppositions main resource at that time in october and november which was street mobilization. The opposition accepted a request from the vatican to not lead a march that was going to culminate in a rally in downtown caracas. The vatican made that request because it seemed likely such a rally would result in violence. The opposition basically took a step back. One could argue it was a mistake to call off the march completely. But you could also understand why the vatican made that request. The problem is the vatican was not able to deliver. At this point, they have somewhat disengaged from the process. And there is a real problem it is ain country, problem of firepower in venezuela. How do you create a new equilibrium in which the opposition can in some way match force with the government . It is going to be very difficult. The Trump Administration has used the kingpin authority to make a special designation about the Vice President of the country, unappointed official, that he is a narco traffic or. That is significant because it governmentshould the look to make an internal transition, the current Vice President would not be viable as a substitute because how would you travel . How would you travel . Has been the first attempt by the Trump Administration to send a new message. It is quite clear dialogue has been put on hold for now. I think we need to think about talks as a multishot game. It is not just one and done. It is about creating new conditions for a future round. Ethan the future round, you think the organization for american states might be involved . Currently, the secretarygeneral issued a very good report, a 75page report condemning all of the different the past dialogue saying the government was not held accountable. As michael was saying, by engaging in those talks it stripped the oppositions ability to exercise its fundamental rights. I do not see the venezuelan government accepting the oas because it has been very outspoken. The president has called the secretarygeneral trash. But is not a good way to initiate dialogue. It is not a one and done. This has to be a repetitive process. The issue is it has to be in a way done in a way that holds the government accountable. The government is betting it can hold the line until the next elections in 2018 and at that time hopefully when the price of oil will have gone up and they can engage in a new round of patronage. Ethan do you agree with michael this move to name the Vice President a drug kingpin by the is an States Government attempt by this administration to Say Something . Obama did the same with the guy who became the interior Justice Minister as well. Indu also have the feeling of the naming of this man as Vice President was also a political act by the president. This man is bad news. Most he is one of the thuggish individuals in power anywhere. Crime spiked. Good evidence he has been involved. Was this a wise move to spur the dialogue . Some people say no. May be