Joining the is zanny minton beddoes, editor in chief of the economist. And roger cohen for the New York Times. Joining us from washington, al hunt. And robert costa of washington week. I am pleased to have all of them here on the program. Its a changing world, they tell me. Myles blow wrote this whole life i have taken for granted americas leadership in the world. And balance to the world. America has been in perfect but always seems to me bent towards the belief that america in the world could be made more perfect. A close. Has come to america is exiting the world stage. Donald trump is drawing the curtains. Does that sound like something you hear often in europe . Zanny yeah, it does, actually. Perhaps not put quite that eloquently. But it does sound like something you hear a lot in europe. There is a sense that the u. S. Exerting the leadership. Under donald trump, the america viewsagenda is one way he the world, a zerosum world where americas interest it is no longer a community of nations as h. R. Mcmasters penned in the wall street journal. The climate accord and the decision to pull out of paris was the latest and biggest testament to this big change. Charlie the question we raised, also clearly, President Trump did not come out and declare forthrightly he stood by article v, but i think paris was a very powerful signal. For he said i was pittsburgh and not paris. The rest of the world is going, this is the u. S. Charlie they all thought they were citizens of the world. Zanny citizens of the world has become a tricky phrase. Theresa may says if you are not a citizen of the world, youre a citizen of nowhere. I think it is that people thought the world order was one with where where america leads. Charlie there are issues that affect everybody in the world. So there is a common sense of impact from climate change. It doesnt spare anybody. Zanny the big difference is the view that it appears to be central to the administration that President Trump seems to believe that americas had a bad deal by leading the rest of the world. And this kind of zerosum nature where no longer is there a sense of a community of nations, where there are things that can help everybody, but there are things that benefit others must be that for america. That transactional nature is something very different. 0ther it is the 75t anniversary of the Marshall Plan. The Marshall Plan would be incomprehensible to our president for the reason zanny stated. I mean, he was a plan that involved the United States giving a lot of money to europe that everybody benefited in the end. And europe was rebuilt and the United States was a huge beneficiary. And President Trump does not seem to believe in that kind of policy. And i think for the First Time Since world war ii we seem to ess u. E. Foreigns policy u. S. Foreign policy. The idea of a u. S. Foreign policy that does not contain somewhere within it the notion o f spreading liberty, the rule of er, a rulesbased world ord all that is simply. An idea. S if america denies that idea it is no longer itself. This president does not seem to have met a dictator he does not like. It has been left to Angela Merkel in germany and Emmanuel Macron in france to hold up the banner for now at least of the values based world order that america embodied since 1945. Charlie some say that country that will come in and fill the vacuum is neither britain or france. The country that will fill the vacuum is trying. Roger we have the curious situation today were china seems to embody more than the United States an open Global Trading system. And clearly when the United States abdicates, when America First causes this kind of retreat, who is going to fill that vacuum . It is going to be the biggest rising power. And that power is china. I do think that this chaotic valueless Foreign Policy is dangerous. Right now in the gulf were seeing the president apparently in a series of tweets pointing to qatar as a major source of sunni terrorism. At the same time, it does not seem to begrudge him that this is home to the largest u. S. Military base in the area. This over atmr. Mat the defense department, what is he having to deal with right . It is not easy working in this team. Charlie it is a staging ground for our presidency zanny i think the chinese would very much like the rest of the world to think they are upholders of the system of globalization, but i am not at all sure they are. In the shortterm, the consequences of u. S. Abdication of this leadership is that there is not any leadership which is worrying. I think we have to separate a little bit the president s tweeting and all of that which is its own separate thing with the broad outlook of this administration. There are a lot of people in this administration who still have the basic view of american leadership. Im sure on the National Security team. But the president himself, and i right,oger is absolutely the president firstly has a clearly transactional view of the world. He is a real estate developer. You do deals as a quentin. Sequentially. One person wins and one person loses. If you pay too much for the hotel, you have done well and i have done badly. It is a very zerosum view of the world. But i think he translated it onto the global stage. He quite exquisitely, they would u. S. T, the 1945, the decided to take a globe or leadership role more others got a better deal pure now the time has come to change that. You add onto that what is fairly an Economic Outlook that the president has had for many decades where he believes that the trade deficits are a bad trade deals. And America First means deals that benefit america. In his view that trading system needs to change. On the americar first agenda. They are not in his view a lifting up of the drawbridge. If we had this conversation, he might dispute that. He recently say i need to look out for americas. Also say this. Ld this is what the people who elected me wanted me to do. The mayor of pittsburgh, but also the people who gave me victories, certainly in those states that i expected perhaps to be closely contested or two lose. To lose. Zanny im sure steve bannon is reminding him of that every single day. A natural, hes not internationalists who is being dragged this way because of his base. He actually holds those police. Charlie what are the consequences of america not leading the world . Roger i think the consequences are for now a vacuum. Everybody is waking up every morning not knowing what to expect from the United States. Theas zanny said, president s commitment to fundamental institutions of global stability over decades, including nato and the european union, are very doubtful at this moment. So, you know, what happens if president putin steps into estonia, a nato member . We dont know. What happens if there is a flareup in the South China Sea . We dont know. We do know that this is a president as one member of his administration put it that is interested in hard power, not soft power. It seems that it is an administration that is prepared to countenance a small to mediumsized war somewhere in the next couple of years that it could say it triumphs in. Triumphed in. I do not know what that conflict with be. I think everybody is worried and he will did at times. They think that the adults in the room, if you like, have controlled the president. But i its said that power changes people. I think we see what donald trump that power does not change people. Donald trump is donald trump. He is not a russian doll. There is not another little donald trump looking to embrace another policy. If you look at the open letter he took out in 1987, 3 decades ago, it says exactly what he says now. We the United States are being screwed. We have to be tough. A minimum, the international system, the rules as your feed because if you do not have the leader of the free world tending that system, they atrophy. What does that mean if you are our Southeast Asian country know and you have traditionally been allied with the United States, and the first thing President Trump did was to withdraw from tpp, you have a large rising power, china, your catalyst has shifted in terms of food you rely on more yowho do you rey on more . The uncertainty of not knowing what the u. S. Reaction is. If you are u. S. Ally, can you really trust the u. S. . Can you trust what the u. S. Is going to do . Increasingly countries are worried about that. Charlie there is also this interesting thing. A lot of nations around the world whether it is asia or europe came to these institutions because the United States asked them to come and brought them in and encourage them to the there. We leave and theyre still there. Zanny absolutely. It is happening at the time when the nature of the Global Governance is shifting. Because of the rise of china. We are always going to have a question of how with the u. S. Accommodate a rising china, the worlds secondlargest economy . How is that shift going to happen . Now youve got that shift happening with the u. S. Abdicating responsibility and saying we are going for America First. At best, you have a more uncertain world. We take for granted these institutions. These acronyms, the imf, the wto, most people do not pay any attention to them but they fall together form together something that has brought us stability and prosperity for seven decades. Charlie and russia and china wanted to be part of those organizations. Roger the state department and Foreign Service offices are in a state of shock. Not only is it the plan to slash ofthe budget of the state department by 30 . It sends a clear message. It is interesting in the last couple of days you seen the acting chief of mission in beijing quit rather than hand the chinese to government to that stated the United States had quit the paris accords are today you have, its acting ever because this administration does not have enough investors. Strong support to the mayor, the london mayor, who was criticized vehemently strony President Trump apparently for no other reason than hes a muslim. Charlie robert, have you been listening to this conversation . I want to bring you in because you have covered for a long time the president. Al has covered washington for a long time. There is some sense we amend talking here about europe, but the president also faces a huge challenge coming up on thursday. Bob, lay out for me how the Trump Administration sees this and how they will respond. Robert the president himself wants to be his own messenger. He was to be the person, his lawyer, his spokesman, his media watchdog. But this is against the advice of his own aides, the white House Counsel and others im told have told the president to resist, to not engage. They have packed his schedule on thursday with different events. But the president remains adamant that he wants to directly confront comey should he feel the need to on thursday. Charlie al . This will be a big day in washington. Al it is going to be a big day. First of all, lets understand what comey is going to talk about. He is not going to talk about the investigation. He is going to talk about what trump said to him. A lot of it has been out but when jim komen, a man who some have questioned his judgment but no one has ever questioned his integrity jim comey. Handhe raises that right and swears under oath of perjury that this conversation took place, i do not think it much matters what donald trump tweets. Because i think it is clear who will be blamed, except by that 30 base. Charlie the reaction in europe to all of this . Inthe, that the president is trouble at home. Because of his response to the russian probe and what he did in terms of flynn and comey. Zanny i think that is probably a combination of utter fascination. It is like watching an ongoing soap opera. Confusion. Because no one can follow what the heck is going on. Schadenfreude mixed with expectation. Will this mean that he will go . The europeans are gripped by this as everyone is in this country. I find you can have a conversation with people in the u. K. In as much detail as you have pretty much here. Charlie they know the facts zanny my goodness. They know the facts absolutely. You combined that with the morning twitter storm, and you just cannot believe this is happening. Its surreal. The president , as you have been chronicling since the beginning of this campaign, how does he think he is going to get through this . Does he think that this will blow away . Or does he view this as a serious challenge to his presidency that most people do . Robert its very difficult for President Trump aired if you look at his book the art of the he talks about how fighting as part of the ee sos that defined his career. He believes in the public imagination if someone is seen as fighting more than a prominent as an opponent they can be seen as in the right even if they are in the run. He would relish going to the New York Post and page six. He loved fighting with ed ko ch. In spite of all of these swirling problems and the advice of his aides to cool it, he believes in his gut that fighting is the way to connect with his base. He does not really care about the consequences in terms of the Global Response or how his own party feels perhaps a bit uncomfortable with the way he has proceeded. Zanny he may not be wrong about that in the short term. Clearly, there are a lot of people in the base for whom this is the Mainstream Media attacking him for a whole load of trumped up stuff. The question is, at the same time, its deterring them from being able to push through any of his agenda. Thatikingg thing is nothing has gotten done. This was supposed to be infrastructure week. Roger he cant stand a minute of calm. Calm is if calm fatal to him. I had a fascinating conversations with Susan Collins of maine. She said, look at the big issues facing the Senate Health care, trying to get something passed, overhaul that Nations Health care law. The president seems to be more concerned with fighting with the london mayor, talking about his infrastructure projects. Agenda onriving in capitol hill. Remember the bargain many republicans privately tell me and you have made with this president , he is not ideological. They saw him as politically useful to pass what they wanted on health care and taxes. Now that those proposals have stalled, that usefulness is coming under scrutiny and question. Is it likely that any of these things will pass before the next election in 2018 . A taxthink they may get cut. But i would be very surprised if they get health care or infrastructure. Trump does not care much about history but it teaches us things. I do remember some 44 years ago. And Richard Nixon was quite a different creature in many ways than trump. But going to bobs point of trumps view of fighting back. That is actually review that nixon. He was more secure and more measured than trump was. But that was the strategy in 1973, keep the base. And fight back and fight hard. Innocent if you will, then that will work. If he has not, he has got Robert Mueller investigating, he is in trouble. Charlie every time you ask anybody from any of the committees, they will say there is some circumstantial evidence but we see smoke but no fire yet. Didnt see this smoking gun on nixon until nine days after they voted impeachment. Remember the smoking gun in terms of collusion with russia may not actually end up being the issue. For the white house, when i was there today, they were talking about absorption of justice as the question that looms over this. Do trumps exchanges with comey, the meeting at the white house in february, the phone calls,an these be seen by comey perhaps in his testimony and by trumps critics as an obstruction of justice . That worries the white house more than all of the smoke on pressure collusion. Charlie at some point you expect all of you here at the table, looking at how, evenetts you have covered, that is some point people begin leaving the administration because a a, think it is a sinking ship, or because there is something about the values they believe in that they think are being sullied . Zanny i would not be at all surprised if that happened. I suspect it is a matter of time. For me, the interesting when we went to see the president a few weeks ago, we described it as such in our editorial, it felt like a court. Courtiers around the king rather than an administration around the president. Frankly, no surprise to me that the president gets on terribly well with autocrats. Not that he is authoritarian in the 1930s european sense, but it is a king and his court. He goes to saudi arabia and he rather liked the way things are done there. Its not as, i make it sound more sort of sinister than i mean it to, because when he ran the trump organization, it was a one man show. He did not have a boss, he do not have checks and balances except the law, which he took issue with quite often. For me, that is a have a way of thinking about how things are there. Process is not something that is a big part of the president s roger when i saw you in london and you are just gotten back from that meeting in the white house you said one of the most striking things was how frightened, how terrified a lot of his aides seemed, afraid to speak to zanny his aides were offering what he said. Charlie does the leaking continued rapidly . Rampantly . Robert there are a lot of lifelong bureaucrats who are deeply concerned. That comes up repeatedly through the course of my reporting. Your questions y