you know, i think it's been revealed how much we rely on norms, as opposed to things that are cod ified in law. and i think that's certainly been a surprise to me. >> yeah. yeah. i mean, norms mean values. democracy is not a machine. democracy's not something that's delivered by capitalism. it is ultimately delivered by people caring about wanting to rule. and so democracy itself has to become a kind of value, which means politicians we respect have to lean forward to protect it and citizens can't imagine it's going to be delivered because it's not. we have to make positive commitments to things like the right to vote. we have to treat it as a value. we, ourselves, have to affirm those norms. >> the book is on tyranny. timothy snyder, thank you so much. really appreciate it. >> coming up next tonight. more breaking news. more cdc guidelines on testing that could end up discouraging