allow further holocausts, further genocides, further extermination of countries such as we saw during world war ii. that is happening now with ukraine. and so where is nato in meeting this moral obligation? that's the dilemma. we don't want to start world war iii. we don't want to expand the war. i don't think anyone is arguing for that. but the flip side is if you don't do something, and if you don't risk something, then you are seeing this never again moment repeat itself. and i think that's a shame on all of us. >> in terms of the bigger picture and what's at stake beyond ukraine, the u.n. foreign secretary wrote this for the financial times. "our response is not just aimed at deterring putin's territorial ambitions, but showing other potential hostile states how we deal with threats. well cannot allow any authoritarian to think their aggression will go unchallenged." how much pain needs to be inflicted on russia and putin to maybe make anyone like stalin