solicited by the president of the united states has been. it is a really ugly tale. >> a really ugly tale. you also pointed out that john dean was a much better witness. tim, as we look at this, that is something the republicans quickly jumped on. yes, he may have said quid pro quo in the opening statement, but there was a lot that did not seem as damnin in their eyes. there was so much he didn't remember. he doesn't have notes and he doesn't have this from their meetings. how damaging is that? >> first of all, let's keep in mind that it's only later that you really understand the implications of a john dean moment. as carl knows better than anybody, john dean's testimony did not lead immediately to impeachment hearings. john dean's testimony actually leads to a rephrasing, a reframing of the conversation about the president's role in the coverup, but it's the tapes, it's the tapes that change the