medicare. the theory is they're big enough to drive quality, price and safety, but we now have 50 years of history to prove they're ineffective at doing so. >> steven, when you looked at it very carefully going and looking at the actual bills that were sent, in a sense, you kim to ca the same conclusion. it doesn't function as a normal market. >> it doesn't function as a normal market. i disagree completely with your analysis. it doesn't function as a normal market because the kinds of medical proerncedures that you describe are voluntary procedures. you volunteer to have lasik surgery. you certainly volunteer to have a facelift. you don't wake up the morning and say, gee, i think i'm going to, you know, have a heart attack today. i ought to go shop around and see which emergency room is going to be the best for me. what their prices are, what their quality is. >> you give us an example , a