for example, when i testified, i didn't spare anybody including myself. so i think that was missing in the greater picture. although he was a very important witness. he did move the story much further and give us a lot of information. >> anything for the republicans to say, this is a deep state right here, this person hates trump. >> mr. holmes is less known in washington. he's been a career official around the world, and i think the republicans will say, you didn't hear the entire conversation, you think you heard the president, but come on, a cell phone conversation? you could see, again, he adds to a narrative. if you add up the other witnesses, he's very compelling from the democrats' perspective. >> which is fair. et cete that's not a credibility point, it's an efficiency point. but in terms of whether or not he's spinning a tale because he doesn't like the president, that's what the president is alleging. >> that's a tougher argument.