is a vacuum. the question becomes how do you harness the message because it was so much more important to the man than just the man. what do you think is the lesson that has to be pulled out of this for people so that the message doesn't die with the man? >> i think the lesson is you have to be able to reconcile with your rivals and your enemies. and that the things that actually bring you together are much greater than what divides you. and the challenge for south africa now is not to -- use what he's done to make that nation grown and continue to expand and evolve. i do think south africa is in a little bit of a perilous situation now. i think if people are buried backward looking and say he's gone, how can we survive? >> here, too, rich. >> here -- >> it's a message that should resonate everywhere. >> the world over. >> i think people understand that message, in some ways better here than they do there. there he is a father figure. so people still are enthralled