and his son is unfairly attacked. i get that. >> i get the sense from the campaign they're not one bit unhappy with this moment. and that what he was doing was attacking trump by proxy, they think, there. and in their minds, they think they're riding a moment between the kerry endorsement, kamala harris getting out of the race. i think they feel that biden's getting a bit of a stride in iowa. >> i don't know how he's doing on the ground in iowa. i think one of the rules of politics as paul said is don't attack a voter and anger rarely works. i think in a very narrow sense it did work for biden. because the big question is you go out and talk to democrats is is he tough enough to take on trump? will he punch back? or will he punch him first? i think there you saw that. there's a much better way to answer that going forward. if he does it again and again, i