in addition to targeted attacks, they can also do indiscriminate attacks like they have done. they took a company, solar winds, that provided software to a lot of people, and they put malware in the software update, in the software supply chain, hit 14,000 companies. they didn't even know what companies it was going to hit. so they could do either targeted or indiscriminate attacks. it is likely they will because what else can they do to retaliate for our sanctions? and they have said they will retaliate for our sanctions. >> you mentioned solarwinds, would you expect there is also -- they're already in the system, right, they're already in the door and they just have been waiting? >> when we discovered solarwinds, my first question was how many more are there like this?