we should move away from that hyperbole. there isn't going to be one big cyber attack the tipping point. i think what we're looking at here is death by a thousand cuts, so lots of low level attacks which essentially build up to have a detrimental effect on the confidence in the ukrainian government. it's really psychological operations, and that's really the type of attack that we've seen in ukraine since 2014. >> so basically the aim is just to kind of destabilize, to make ukraine look like a failed state? is that it? >> exactly. so let's look at the history of destructive and disruptive cyber attacks by russia and its affiliates. and this is really important. we can't attribute everything to the russian state, but the links are clear with organized crime, like minded nations, et cetera. and at least since 2014 we've seen cyber attacks on energy